5 ms·

Perhaps not just when prices are negative, but it's not an uncommon practice to 'store' power by pumping water uphill when it's cheap and demand is low (general

Perhaps not just when prices are negative, but it's not an uncommon practice to 'store' power by pumping water uphill when it's cheap and demand is low (generally at night), and then using that potential energy to generate and sell it when electricity is more expensive. I have absolutely no clue what it would take to make that profitable, but it's a strategy for handling the natural spikes of demand when using power generation methods like solar and wind that are unable to adjust quickly to changing demand.

jweir 9y ago
A lot of hyrdro plants have exactly that ability. Buy low sell high.
- k__ 9y ago
  So they could now make money when buying AND selling?
  - jamesrom 9y ago
    Just like everything else, yes.
    - wapz 9y ago
      I don't think there are too many products that you can make money from buying. The few I can think of are things like bee hives (paid to remove it and paid for the bees), dirt/sand in abundance areas (I'm not sure they sell it), and other natural resources. Most of them you're getting paid for removal and not buying though.
      - oh_sigh 9y ago
        Housing and real property can sometimes effectively work that way, where you are paid for buying because you are taking on responsibilities by purchasing the property(say, for liens, cleanup, etc)
        tonyedgecombe 9y ago
        A business that wants to shift a loss making division could be the same.
Baeocystin 9y ago
>I have absolutely no clue what it would take to make that profitable You need a large watershed with a wide range of useable head. It is an excellent system when the geography and hydrology allows for it. Unfortunately, such areas are not common or evenly spread, and are not really possible to economically construct without a great deal of cooperation from the local geology.
- AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
  You also need one where you're given significant environmental carte blanche. These types of projects are similar to dam projects in the scope and scale of the amount of the environment that they destroy, times two as you need upper/lower ponds.
  - abraae 9y ago
    Your lower pond could be the sea.
    - tsomctl 9y ago
      So then you're pumping salt water into (presumably) a fresh water lake. I don't think that decreases the environmental damage.
      - abraae 9y ago
        Yep, your upstream lake should also be saltwater.
        Baeocystin 9y ago
        I honestly do not think there is anywhere in the world that has easy access to the ocean, a large potential hydraulic head, and a pre-existing elevated saline lake to work with. Maybe somewhere in the Atacama? Is there enough power demand in the region to make it worthwhile? [edit] I did find a very small seawater pilot project that was dismantled last year in Okinawa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_Yanbaru_Seawater_Pumped_Storage_Power_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_Yanbaru_Seawater_Pumpe...
adrusi 9y ago
I hadn't realized that the incentive structures could make it possible for an organization apart from the energy producer to run such a facility. An elegant application of market economics.

jweir 9y ago

A lot of hyrdro plants have exactly that ability. Buy low sell high.

k__ 9y ago
So they could now make money when buying AND selling?
- jamesrom 9y ago
  Just like everything else, yes.
  - wapz 9y ago
    I don't think there are too many products that you can make money from buying. The few I can think of are things like bee hives (paid to remove it and paid for the bees), dirt/sand in abundance areas (I'm not sure they sell it), and other natural resources. Most of them you're getting paid for removal and not buying though.
    - oh_sigh 9y ago
      Housing and real property can sometimes effectively work that way, where you are paid for buying because you are taking on responsibilities by purchasing the property(say, for liens, cleanup, etc)
      - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
        A business that wants to shift a loss making division could be the same.

Baeocystin 9y ago

>I have absolutely no clue what it would take to make that profitable You need a large watershed with a wide range of useable head. It is an excellent system when the geography and hydrology allows for it. Unfortunately, such areas are not common or evenly spread, and are not really possible to economically construct without a great deal of cooperation from the local geology.

AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
You also need one where you're given significant environmental carte blanche. These types of projects are similar to dam projects in the scope and scale of the amount of the environment that they destroy, times two as you need upper/lower ponds.
- abraae 9y ago
  Your lower pond could be the sea.
  - tsomctl 9y ago
    So then you're pumping salt water into (presumably) a fresh water lake. I don't think that decreases the environmental damage.
    - abraae 9y ago
      Yep, your upstream lake should also be saltwater.
      - Baeocystin 9y ago
        I honestly do not think there is anywhere in the world that has easy access to the ocean, a large potential hydraulic head, and a pre-existing elevated saline lake to work with. Maybe somewhere in the Atacama? Is there enough power demand in the region to make it worthwhile? [edit] I did find a very small seawater pilot project that was dismantled last year in Okinawa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_Yanbaru_Seawater_Pumped_Storage_Power_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_Yanbaru_Seawater_Pumpe...

adrusi 9y ago

I hadn't realized that the incentive structures could make it possible for an organization apart from the energy producer to run such a facility. An elegant application of market economics.