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A wide ranging organic system without areas of contention and without room for improvements is a practical impossibility - but there should not be any genuine a

A wide ranging organic system without areas of contention and without room for improvements is a practical impossibility - but there should not be any genuine argument that the major legislated systems of organic agriculture developed across the World, currently represent the most mature and well researched alternatives we have to legacy standards. To be dismissive of the biggest organised effort in the world to improve agricultural practice, and argue past it is really to miss out on the biggest opportunity to do so.

exclusiv 9y ago
> there should not be any genuine argument that the major legislated systems of organic agriculture developed across the World, currently represent the most mature and well researched alternatives we have to legacy standards You just made an incredibly generalized statement which tries to shut down any criticism while conveniently ignoring research and data. I proposed valid research that says that per unit, organic farms leach more ammonia, nitrogen and oxide per product unit. That's a problem because you need to produce X units and your waterways could get disrupted and contaminated more than if you used a hybrid or straight conventional system. However, research shows a lot of good things from organic methods. It's certainly possible a hybrid approach is best. I don't know why you're so dismissive of research that suggests this.
- strainer 9y ago
  I just recalled the overarching situation - there is no 'hybrid approach' there is your nations mandatory standards and your regions Organic standards. There are no other accessible alternatives which we can practically select between as consumers of agriculture. You can support organic standards and production, or focus on research critical of it. That research I referenced covered bythe phys.org article is a substantial metareview published last year. You responded with a small study published in 2012 and a list of links too diverse to use. your argument is very general "hybrid would be best" -- Recognise the wood amongst the trees.
  - exclusiv 9y ago
    > There are no other accessible alternatives which we can practically select between as consumers of agriculture. I'm not talking about consumers of agriculture. The vast majority of consumers will choose whatever is cheapest and looks good. I'm talking about best practices for farming as it relates to yield and environmental impact. If the truly best practice happens to be a hybrid method and that becomes the standard, well then consumers will be forced to support that best practice and won't have to think anymore. > your argument is very general "hybrid would be best" I never said that. I said it's quite possible that it is since there's research to suggest this and you must consider a lot of factors, one of which is yield. If organic had the lowest environmental impact on an area but yielded way less produce, thereby requiring more land to be used, which had a larger overall environmental impact - that's sensible to question and study. Do you not agree? We have a lot of farms already using some organic best practices alongside conventional methods. There's examples in the podcast I posted that use a hybrid approach. > You can support organic standards and production, or focus on research critical of it. Or, you could throw your agenda aside and support finding out the optimal way to farm these days and treat it as an ongoing process just like we usually do with technology. Bottom line: there's nothing preventing the new best practice from being a hybrid approach which includes organic and conventional methods.
    - strainer 9y ago
      >The vast majority of consumers will choose whatever is cheapest and looks good. That is a dismissive position on the potential of consumers of organic agriculture to affect the whole system. Its not a spectator sport - proponents of organic agriculture consume it. >you must consider a lot of factors, one of which is yield. The substantial 2016 meta review which I linked is actually a professional peer reviewed consideration of all relevant factors including yields. I dont enjoy arguing at length against common dismissal of organic farming, which is why I just dropped a very relevant quote and link to a good study in this thread. I think it could serve your interests to examine that study fully rather than brush over it.
      - exclusiv 9y ago

exclusiv 9y ago

> there should not be any genuine argument that the major legislated systems of organic agriculture developed across the World, currently represent the most mature and well researched alternatives we have to legacy standards You just made an incredibly generalized statement which tries to shut down any criticism while conveniently ignoring research and data. I proposed valid research that says that per unit, organic farms leach more ammonia, nitrogen and oxide per product unit. That's a problem because you need to produce X units and your waterways could get disrupted and contaminated more than if you used a hybrid or straight conventional system. However, research shows a lot of good things from organic methods. It's certainly possible a hybrid approach is best. I don't know why you're so dismissive of research that suggests this.

strainer 9y ago
I just recalled the overarching situation - there is no 'hybrid approach' there is your nations mandatory standards and your regions Organic standards. There are no other accessible alternatives which we can practically select between as consumers of agriculture. You can support organic standards and production, or focus on research critical of it. That research I referenced covered bythe phys.org article is a substantial metareview published last year. You responded with a small study published in 2012 and a list of links too diverse to use. your argument is very general "hybrid would be best" -- Recognise the wood amongst the trees.
- exclusiv 9y ago
  > There are no other accessible alternatives which we can practically select between as consumers of agriculture. I'm not talking about consumers of agriculture. The vast majority of consumers will choose whatever is cheapest and looks good. I'm talking about best practices for farming as it relates to yield and environmental impact. If the truly best practice happens to be a hybrid method and that becomes the standard, well then consumers will be forced to support that best practice and won't have to think anymore. > your argument is very general "hybrid would be best" I never said that. I said it's quite possible that it is since there's research to suggest this and you must consider a lot of factors, one of which is yield. If organic had the lowest environmental impact on an area but yielded way less produce, thereby requiring more land to be used, which had a larger overall environmental impact - that's sensible to question and study. Do you not agree? We have a lot of farms already using some organic best practices alongside conventional methods. There's examples in the podcast I posted that use a hybrid approach. > You can support organic standards and production, or focus on research critical of it. Or, you could throw your agenda aside and support finding out the optimal way to farm these days and treat it as an ongoing process just like we usually do with technology. Bottom line: there's nothing preventing the new best practice from being a hybrid approach which includes organic and conventional methods.
  - strainer 9y ago
    >The vast majority of consumers will choose whatever is cheapest and looks good. That is a dismissive position on the potential of consumers of organic agriculture to affect the whole system. Its not a spectator sport - proponents of organic agriculture consume it. >you must consider a lot of factors, one of which is yield. The substantial 2016 meta review which I linked is actually a professional peer reviewed consideration of all relevant factors including yields. I dont enjoy arguing at length against common dismissal of organic farming, which is why I just dropped a very relevant quote and link to a good study in this thread. I think it could serve your interests to examine that study fully rather than brush over it.
    - exclusiv 9y ago