24 ms·

Can't claim to be a fanboy, but I am a longtime user[1], and this is the primary reason I stick to them for my phone. I frankly can't imagine using Android the

by __jal 9y ago

Can't claim to be a fanboy, but I am a longtime user[1], and this is the primary reason I stick to them for my phone. I frankly can't imagine using Android the way I use my Iphone - the privacy invasions considered acceptable are well in to the "no go" range for me, before even getting to the malware that pass for "free apps". If I were somehow forced to use Android, I'm pretty sure I'd treat it as an adversarial device, mostly like a feature-phone. Trust is vital in devices like this. [1] I'm becoming less of a fan, as MacOS becomes "cloud aware" and less of a Unix workstation.

theCricketer 9y ago
Could you elaborate on Android's weaknesses when it comes to privacy and contrast this with Apple's approach? Asking genuinely to update my understanding.
- macinjosh 9y ago
  The glib response is to point out the difference between Apple's and Google's business models. Apple makes money by selling devices, Google sells ads (i.e. sells their customers' data to advertisers).
  - BoorishBears 9y ago
    And that Apple is the OEM behind the device that runs their OS, and Google (usually) isn't.
    - throwanem 9y ago
      Also that Android only gained the ability to enforce iOS-style fine-grained app permissions (prompting on first use for access to camera, location, etc., instead of a blanket grant at install time) one major version ago, which means that many if not most users can't actually get the benefit without buying a newer phone. I gather there are some questions around the strength of its app sandboxing as well, but I can't speak to that at all. Perhaps someone better informed will do so.
      - BoorishBears 9y ago
        Those permissions are also opt-in for devs at the moment (by choosing certain OS versions at build time you can still use the old permissions system). I'm an Android dev and to me the biggest problem with Android from every aspect (development, security, monetization) is how poorly new versions of Android are supported on devices. Apple's dig at Android 7 usage vs iOS 10 usage was spot on.
  - Oletros 9y ago
    > (i.e. sells their customers' data to advertisers). This is not true
  - had2makeanacct 9y ago
    >(i.e. sells their customers' data to advertisers) They take the ads, and distribute them to their users based on user taste that's their secret sauce. Giving user data to advertisers would be giving away their secrets I think.
  - mythz 9y ago
    > Google sells ads (i.e. sells their customers' data to advertisers). They sell targeted ads, they do not sell customers' data to advertisers. i.e. Advertisers get to advertise on Google's platforms, but they do not get access to Customer data.
- threeseed 9y ago
  Couple of examples: 1) iOS has had lazy permissions since the very early days e.g. when an app wants to use this microphone then ask the user right then instead of when the app is installed. This feature is still not implemented on all Android devices nor is it as seamless nor is it mandatory. 2) Apple is providing more and more frameworks e.g. CoreML which run only on the device. This means that developers don't have to run their own server side apps to process data.
  - j2bax 9y ago
    I don't really see that as lazy. I see that as considerate/beneficial to the user. I much prefer to be asked in context what/how the app is going to use the microphone for rather than on initial install, when I might be like "why the heck does this app need to use the microphone?"
    - johncolanduoni 9y ago
      It was being used in the programming sense, not as an insult. When some code passes around a "placeholder" instead of a value and waits until it is used to bother calculating it, that is commonly described as "lazy".
      - j2bax 9y ago
        Got it! Thanks for the explanation and not assuming I'm a programmer, because I'm not!
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
TheAceOfHearts 9y ago
For an Android alternative, check out CopperheadOS [0]. I'd argue it's better than iOS in privacy, since you can compile it yourself (excluding a few binary blobs). [0] https://copperhead.co/android/ https://copperhead.co/android/
- satsuma 9y ago
  All these Android alternatives really make me wish I have someone other than Verizon as a carrier.
lqdc13 9y ago
Not sure how you use your iphone or what you would need from a smartphone, but I don't understand the distinction. Apps like Lyft, Yelp and Uber already know where you are so you can't use those. You're left with maps and browser. People tend to use google maps and Waze on iPhone anyway so that point is gone as well. If they use Apple maps, I am not convinced that apple doesn't store location history. So then you're left with a browser. Android lets Firefox run its own browser engine and you can install all the privacy extensions there. On the other hand, with Android it's possible to take privacy a lot more seriously. Lineage OS lets you have much more fine-grained controls over all the apps and you can forego the whole google services privacy menace.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >Apps like Lyft, Yelp and Uber already know where you are so you can't use those. Only when you use them. You can either not install them at all (problem solved). or only allow them to "know your location" when you explicitly launch them and only for the duration of you actively using them on screen (problem lessened).
  - virmundi 9y ago
    I don't know if they've fixed this, or if was just me not working the phone right, but Disney's park maps kept tracking when the app was closed.
    - tricolon 9y ago
      From the "Privacy and Your Apps" presentation on Tuesday at WWDC: > in iOS 11, users will be able to choose the “when in use” option at all times [when asked for permission to use their location]
    - et-al 9y ago
      > Disney's park maps kept tracking when the app was closed Closed or in the background? I was under the impression (in iOS 10 and earlier), that "Always" meant anytime the app was open, and "While in use" is only when the app is in the foreground. So if an app has "Always" on for its Location Services, it will stop tracking when I swipe up and quit it. If I've been incorrect this whole time, please pass the tinfoil.
s73ver 9y ago
"[1] I'm becoming less of a fan, as MacOS becomes "cloud aware" and less of a Unix workstation." How is it becoming less of a Unix workstation? It can still do all the Unixy stuff it could before.
- __jal 9y ago
  What I mean is twofold: - They're paying much less attention to the "Unixy stuff" than they used to. Old versions of common things take forever to be updated. Compatibility has always been shit, but it is getting worse. SIP means a number of things I tend to modify, can't be, without hassle[1]. - With a workstation, I expect to be able tailor it specifically to my work requirements. This is becoming increasingly difficult at the proliferation of "cloud" daemons increases and they lock down the system - the documentation for most of the daemons ranges from "sucks" to "nonexistent", so it isn't clear if any given one needed for stable operation or if it yet another thing related to trying to sell me music or some such[2]. Reverting the machine to a state where "root" means "root" is rather difficult (See SIP). Apple's focus is on chasing the flavor-of-the-month social features and keeping up with the GOOGs. Which makes sense - the set of people buying that stuff is much larger than the workstation market. But it means they don't care so much about it, and make choices like letting the core OS get as buggy and unstable as it has become. It is mostly fine for me. I built a nice king-hell PC running Debian that I'm very happy with. I didn't think I would, but after my last MBP died unexpectedly, I ended up buying a bottom-rung used Air because I'm hopelessly dependant on OmniFocus and a couple other OS X only productivity tools, and I sync my phone local-only. So it tends to live in the dining room, where I work on my schedule and read mail via ssh over breakfast. So yeah, Apple still has a place for me, but it is peripheral. I spent mid-4 figures on building a PC this year, and mid-3 on that MBA. And I'm thinking about what I really need out of OmniFocus, and how much of that I can build myself. [1] This is a good thing for many people, but I expect full control of my machines, and I do occasionally sketchy things like patching Safari. The problem with SIP is that I only need full control sporadically, and not for long, but it is a serious PITA to disable/enable. So it just stays disabled. [2] One example of many is `parsecd`. No man page. Googling about shows that a lot of people think it to be related to location-based lookups for Siri data. Despite the fact that Siri is disabled on my box, it ran and asked for network access all the time, until I disabled it. Now, WTF is 'LaterAgent', and why is it in my process table?

by __jal 9y ago

theCricketer 9y ago

Could you elaborate on Android's weaknesses when it comes to privacy and contrast this with Apple's approach? Asking genuinely to update my understanding.

macinjosh 9y ago
The glib response is to point out the difference between Apple's and Google's business models. Apple makes money by selling devices, Google sells ads (i.e. sells their customers' data to advertisers).
- BoorishBears 9y ago
  And that Apple is the OEM behind the device that runs their OS, and Google (usually) isn't.
  - throwanem 9y ago
    Also that Android only gained the ability to enforce iOS-style fine-grained app permissions (prompting on first use for access to camera, location, etc., instead of a blanket grant at install time) one major version ago, which means that many if not most users can't actually get the benefit without buying a newer phone. I gather there are some questions around the strength of its app sandboxing as well, but I can't speak to that at all. Perhaps someone better informed will do so.
    - BoorishBears 9y ago
      Those permissions are also opt-in for devs at the moment (by choosing certain OS versions at build time you can still use the old permissions system). I'm an Android dev and to me the biggest problem with Android from every aspect (development, security, monetization) is how poorly new versions of Android are supported on devices. Apple's dig at Android 7 usage vs iOS 10 usage was spot on.
- Oletros 9y ago
  > (i.e. sells their customers' data to advertisers). This is not true
- had2makeanacct 9y ago
  >(i.e. sells their customers' data to advertisers) They take the ads, and distribute them to their users based on user taste that's their secret sauce. Giving user data to advertisers would be giving away their secrets I think.
- mythz 9y ago
  > Google sells ads (i.e. sells their customers' data to advertisers). They sell targeted ads, they do not sell customers' data to advertisers. i.e. Advertisers get to advertise on Google's platforms, but they do not get access to Customer data.
threeseed 9y ago
Couple of examples: 1) iOS has had lazy permissions since the very early days e.g. when an app wants to use this microphone then ask the user right then instead of when the app is installed. This feature is still not implemented on all Android devices nor is it as seamless nor is it mandatory. 2) Apple is providing more and more frameworks e.g. CoreML which run only on the device. This means that developers don't have to run their own server side apps to process data.
- j2bax 9y ago
  I don't really see that as lazy. I see that as considerate/beneficial to the user. I much prefer to be asked in context what/how the app is going to use the microphone for rather than on initial install, when I might be like "why the heck does this app need to use the microphone?"
  - johncolanduoni 9y ago
    It was being used in the programming sense, not as an insult. When some code passes around a "placeholder" instead of a value and waits until it is used to bother calculating it, that is commonly described as "lazy".
    - j2bax 9y ago
      Got it! Thanks for the explanation and not assuming I'm a programmer, because I'm not!
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

TheAceOfHearts 9y ago

For an Android alternative, check out CopperheadOS [0]. I'd argue it's better than iOS in privacy, since you can compile it yourself (excluding a few binary blobs). [0] https://copperhead.co/android/ https://copperhead.co/android/

satsuma 9y ago
All these Android alternatives really make me wish I have someone other than Verizon as a carrier.

lqdc13 9y ago

Not sure how you use your iphone or what you would need from a smartphone, but I don't understand the distinction. Apps like Lyft, Yelp and Uber already know where you are so you can't use those. You're left with maps and browser. People tend to use google maps and Waze on iPhone anyway so that point is gone as well. If they use Apple maps, I am not convinced that apple doesn't store location history. So then you're left with a browser. Android lets Firefox run its own browser engine and you can install all the privacy extensions there. On the other hand, with Android it's possible to take privacy a lot more seriously. Lineage OS lets you have much more fine-grained controls over all the apps and you can forego the whole google services privacy menace.

coldtea 9y ago
>Apps like Lyft, Yelp and Uber already know where you are so you can't use those. Only when you use them. You can either not install them at all (problem solved). or only allow them to "know your location" when you explicitly launch them and only for the duration of you actively using them on screen (problem lessened).
- virmundi 9y ago
  I don't know if they've fixed this, or if was just me not working the phone right, but Disney's park maps kept tracking when the app was closed.
  - tricolon 9y ago
    From the "Privacy and Your Apps" presentation on Tuesday at WWDC: > in iOS 11, users will be able to choose the “when in use” option at all times [when asked for permission to use their location]
  - et-al 9y ago
    > Disney's park maps kept tracking when the app was closed Closed or in the background? I was under the impression (in iOS 10 and earlier), that "Always" meant anytime the app was open, and "While in use" is only when the app is in the foreground. So if an app has "Always" on for its Location Services, it will stop tracking when I swipe up and quit it. If I've been incorrect this whole time, please pass the tinfoil.

s73ver 9y ago

"[1] I'm becoming less of a fan, as MacOS becomes "cloud aware" and less of a Unix workstation." How is it becoming less of a Unix workstation? It can still do all the Unixy stuff it could before.

__jal 9y ago
What I mean is twofold: - They're paying much less attention to the "Unixy stuff" than they used to. Old versions of common things take forever to be updated. Compatibility has always been shit, but it is getting worse. SIP means a number of things I tend to modify, can't be, without hassle[1]. - With a workstation, I expect to be able tailor it specifically to my work requirements. This is becoming increasingly difficult at the proliferation of "cloud" daemons increases and they lock down the system - the documentation for most of the daemons ranges from "sucks" to "nonexistent", so it isn't clear if any given one needed for stable operation or if it yet another thing related to trying to sell me music or some such[2]. Reverting the machine to a state where "root" means "root" is rather difficult (See SIP). Apple's focus is on chasing the flavor-of-the-month social features and keeping up with the GOOGs. Which makes sense - the set of people buying that stuff is much larger than the workstation market. But it means they don't care so much about it, and make choices like letting the core OS get as buggy and unstable as it has become. It is mostly fine for me. I built a nice king-hell PC running Debian that I'm very happy with. I didn't think I would, but after my last MBP died unexpectedly, I ended up buying a bottom-rung used Air because I'm hopelessly dependant on OmniFocus and a couple other OS X only productivity tools, and I sync my phone local-only. So it tends to live in the dining room, where I work on my schedule and read mail via ssh over breakfast. So yeah, Apple still has a place for me, but it is peripheral. I spent mid-4 figures on building a PC this year, and mid-3 on that MBA. And I'm thinking about what I really need out of OmniFocus, and how much of that I can build myself. [1] This is a good thing for many people, but I expect full control of my machines, and I do occasionally sketchy things like patching Safari. The problem with SIP is that I only need full control sporadically, and not for long, but it is a serious PITA to disable/enable. So it just stays disabled. [2] One example of many is `parsecd`. No man page. Googling about shows that a lot of people think it to be related to location-based lookups for Siri data. Despite the fact that Siri is disabled on my box, it ran and asked for network access all the time, until I disabled it. Now, WTF is 'LaterAgent', and why is it in my process table?