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So you buy farmland high in the water catch basin where you're not subject to salination and as few upstream pollution problems. Dig yourself a well, grow your

So you buy farmland high in the water catch basin where you're not subject to salination and as few upstream pollution problems. Dig yourself a well, grow your own food using as few herbicides, fungicides and pesticides as possible. Build your own ecosystem and let the rest of society go to hell. Eventually, if you do it properly, you'll be the only one left with farmable land, you'll be bought out for a handsome price and you take your newfound riches and fuck off to somewhere that doesn't have this problem yet and do it all again. It doesn't matter if anyone believes in it or not. Either you're wrong and you're no further behind, in fact, from a trust standpoint, you're ahead because you're now in control of your food supply from the ground to your plate... and if you're right, then you win. I'm over simplifying to be facetious, but my point stands. If everyone put not only their money where their mouth was, but took legitimate action to ensure their lifestyle fit what was important to their belief, I don't think we'd suffer from half of the problems we do. Unfortunately 90% of the population are happy with just complaining and being armchair politicians and only make the convenient choices that don't interfere with their comfort and their status quo. If you believe big agriculture is destroying the planet, find a sustainable way to not support them, or support them as little as absolutely possible. Support your local farms and farmers. Support Mom & Pop stores in your local area. Buy from farmers markets. Learn to preserve food over the winter months when it's not available. Eat seasonal produce. Of course, everyone's lives are nuanced and complicated. It's not as easy as it sounds for most people. But I firmly believe that if you truly believe we have a problem (which I do), then do something about it instead of just talk, complain and continue life as normal.

mac01021 9y ago
> If everyone put not only their money where their mouth was, but took legitimate action to ensure their lifestyle fit what was important to their belief, I don't think we'd suffer from half of the problems we do. One problem with this is that we fall into a very suboptimal, deleterious Nash Equilibrium. Imagine you're in the 90% of farmers that can't set themselves up "high in the water catch basin" because there is limited space up there. You may be very aware of the problem, but it can only be solved if a majority of farmers in the valley adopt sustainable practices. And, if a majority are not going to do so, then you're am simply hurting myself if I incur the expense of adopting those practices yourself. There is some missing ingredient that needs to be added before people will start cooperating to ensure a long-term good state of affairs. Another problem is that, even if you do set up high in the catch basin and use sustainable farming practices, your produce is going to be comparatively expensive and noone is going to buy it until such time that all those farmers below you finish ruining their soil/aquifer. And you have to eat in the meantime.
- balabaster 9y ago
  The purpose of growing your own crops is to eat your own crops, you just sell the excess. There always seems to be plenty enough people to buy your excess to subsidize the remainder of things you need. The problem with everyone finding problems is that they use these problems as excuses not to make any changes. That puts them in the 90% of people who complain and do nothing. As Venture Capitalists always say - they're not interested in ideas, they're interested in people who can execute. Either you can (and do) execute, or you can't (or don't). Not all legitimate action means moving up the catch basin and growing your own crops. There is legitimate action that can be taken in the city, in the suburbs and in low lying rural areas. You're not hurting yourself by adopting a sustainable lifestyle, you're helping yourself and the planet in the process.
  - balabaster 9y ago
    I love the down votes on this as if I don't speak from experience. This is the life I live, every day. It can be done if you're willing to do it.
  - chicob 9y ago
    >The problem with everyone finding problems is that they use these problems as excuses not to make any changes. This is true. But in the case of many problems around Ecology, most solutions orbit around collective action. Individual actions count, but some of them must be taken in the community/region/national level.
    - balabaster 9y ago
      Absolutely, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't take the actions that are within your power and ability.
Gravityloss 9y ago
I work in the software business. It's definitely the state's function to care about soil erosion, not mine. I vote and pay taxes and expect stuff like courts, law enforcement and military to be taken care of as well.
- balabaster 9y ago
  We all have a lot of expectation of our taxes. But one thing you can be sure of - the Government can and does fuck up pretty much everything you hire them to do. History has proven this time and time again. So at what point do people get off their asses and make things happen instead of just talking about it? P.S. I work in the software business too. Additionally: Do you honestly think that given the Government's lack of guarantee to provide you with free healthcare, clean water, even clean air... given many states atrocious track record for this: Look at Flint with the lead in the water, look at Pennsylvania with oil companies fracking and polluting the drinking water meaning you can literally light the water pouring from your kitchen tap on fire. Do you really trust your Government to provide you any kind of regard when they've got lobbyists campaigning left, right and centre for the interests of people who don't give a shit about you and yours, just their shareholder profits? I think it's naive to expect that the Government will do the right thing, even though as tax payers we should rightfully be able to expect that. They've proven too many times that they won't. The definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If you want different results, something's gotta change. You have no surer way of doing something different than doing it yourself.
  - ingenuous2 9y ago
    Flint situation is so visible because generally the gov't does a great job at regulating water quality. We are not there on greenhouse gas pollution, but the EPA has done some wonderful work on particulate pollution. Also, remember that the old ozone hole is healing? That was helped by a consortium of governments. "Gov't" can mean so many things. This meme ("the Government can and does fuck up pretty much everything you hire them to do") is inaccurate and heavily influenced by the high profile failures that lead to availability bias.
bluGill 9y ago
> Dig yourself a well Where is the water for your well coming from? Your plan sounds good, but the details have to be got right, and we do not know how to get the details right (though we know more now that we need in the past)
- balabaster 9y ago
  Like in most wells, out of the ground ;) I jest... but not really. You'd be surprised just how accessible the water table is, depending on your region. If there are trees on your property, there's a reasonably good chance you're close enough to water to dig a well and get good throughput. If you're looking to buy property, look for properties that have trees that normally require a lot of water. Just by way of example, if there's a Willow tree(s) on the property, there's a good chance you've got water... and aspirin. If your question was related to contaminants and so forth, obviously you have to be aware of where the water is flowing from upstream. If you're downstream of a high contamination zone, your only real choice is to move, sadly.
  - bluGill 9y ago
    My question was related to aquifer depletion. Some deserts have great soil, but there isn't enough water to grow anything, try to dig a well and the well will go dry. Contaminants are a valid question too though.
    - balabaster 9y ago
      This would definitely be another situation you'd need to consider relocation. In that situation, you'd need to find alternative measures to become more sustainable. Like living in the city, the measures you take would look significantly different than someone living in the green zone.
random28345 9y ago
I want to move to this libertarian paradise where I'm not affected by externalities and acting selfishly is always pareto efficient. I want to live in this magical place where we don't need government. Where is it?
- balabaster 9y ago
  Nobody suggested you don't need Government. I do believe in an effective Government. What I don't believe is that the Government has to this point been as effective as the tax payers should be holding them to account.
chicob 9y ago
> Build your own ecosystem and let the rest of society go to hell. Eventually, if you do it properly, you'll be the only one left with farmable land, you'll be bought out for a handsome price and you take your newfound riches and fuck off to somewhere that doesn't have this problem yet and do it all again. Actually, that is not correct. If your neighbour uses fertilizers in excess, your well will be contaminated through drainage. Then you have to adjust your own fertilizer's NPK levels, by subtracting the NPK levels on your contaminated water. Unfortunately, this often saturates, but you still have to fertilize because ammonia/urea and their salts degrade and are easily dissolved in water thus improving acidity and draining fast. If your neighbours use insecticide in excess, your pollination rates drop as well, and so your yields. If your neighbours use the wrong kind of fungicide, mycorrhizae will suffer, and so will your crops if they depend on them. > It doesn't matter if anyone believes in it or not. Yes it does. If you believe that you will be the last farmer standing, you're wrong. Your yields will drop as well. It's like a stampede: you can't stop it, you can just join everyone and run. Unless people organize and stop the madness. Putting my money where my mouth is doesn't work because other peoples' actions count. >If you believe big agriculture is destroying the planet, find a sustainable way to not support them I try every effin day. But it turns out everyone has to do it, otherwise it's just (collective) suicide.
- balabaster 9y ago
  I was being slightly facetious when I suggested you'd be the last farmer standing. Of course you won't be the last farmer standing. Most farmers are slowly coming around to the fact that their actions affect future generations of crop growth and are making changes. You will not be the last farmer standing. Sure, you've gotta put in time, effort and even money to make it go, but overall it's not as expensive as you're led to believe. I do this every day, this is the life I live. Sure it has its problems to negotiate and master, but it's doable. I know this, because I do it.
  - chicob 9y ago
    I was not referring to myself or you, but to the hypothetical farmer taking actions only in his self interest. >I know this, because I do it. I didn't want to imply that there was no solution for this problem. I only stated, from my own perspective as a farmer, how hard it is.

mac01021 9y ago

> If everyone put not only their money where their mouth was, but took legitimate action to ensure their lifestyle fit what was important to their belief, I don't think we'd suffer from half of the problems we do. One problem with this is that we fall into a very suboptimal, deleterious Nash Equilibrium. Imagine you're in the 90% of farmers that can't set themselves up "high in the water catch basin" because there is limited space up there. You may be very aware of the problem, but it can only be solved if a majority of farmers in the valley adopt sustainable practices. And, if a majority are not going to do so, then you're am simply hurting myself if I incur the expense of adopting those practices yourself. There is some missing ingredient that needs to be added before people will start cooperating to ensure a long-term good state of affairs. Another problem is that, even if you do set up high in the catch basin and use sustainable farming practices, your produce is going to be comparatively expensive and noone is going to buy it until such time that all those farmers below you finish ruining their soil/aquifer. And you have to eat in the meantime.

balabaster 9y ago
The purpose of growing your own crops is to eat your own crops, you just sell the excess. There always seems to be plenty enough people to buy your excess to subsidize the remainder of things you need. The problem with everyone finding problems is that they use these problems as excuses not to make any changes. That puts them in the 90% of people who complain and do nothing. As Venture Capitalists always say - they're not interested in ideas, they're interested in people who can execute. Either you can (and do) execute, or you can't (or don't). Not all legitimate action means moving up the catch basin and growing your own crops. There is legitimate action that can be taken in the city, in the suburbs and in low lying rural areas. You're not hurting yourself by adopting a sustainable lifestyle, you're helping yourself and the planet in the process.
- balabaster 9y ago
  I love the down votes on this as if I don't speak from experience. This is the life I live, every day. It can be done if you're willing to do it.
- chicob 9y ago
  >The problem with everyone finding problems is that they use these problems as excuses not to make any changes. This is true. But in the case of many problems around Ecology, most solutions orbit around collective action. Individual actions count, but some of them must be taken in the community/region/national level.
  - balabaster 9y ago
    Absolutely, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't take the actions that are within your power and ability.

Gravityloss 9y ago

I work in the software business. It's definitely the state's function to care about soil erosion, not mine. I vote and pay taxes and expect stuff like courts, law enforcement and military to be taken care of as well.

balabaster 9y ago
We all have a lot of expectation of our taxes. But one thing you can be sure of - the Government can and does fuck up pretty much everything you hire them to do. History has proven this time and time again. So at what point do people get off their asses and make things happen instead of just talking about it? P.S. I work in the software business too. Additionally: Do you honestly think that given the Government's lack of guarantee to provide you with free healthcare, clean water, even clean air... given many states atrocious track record for this: Look at Flint with the lead in the water, look at Pennsylvania with oil companies fracking and polluting the drinking water meaning you can literally light the water pouring from your kitchen tap on fire. Do you really trust your Government to provide you any kind of regard when they've got lobbyists campaigning left, right and centre for the interests of people who don't give a shit about you and yours, just their shareholder profits? I think it's naive to expect that the Government will do the right thing, even though as tax payers we should rightfully be able to expect that. They've proven too many times that they won't. The definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If you want different results, something's gotta change. You have no surer way of doing something different than doing it yourself.
- ingenuous2 9y ago
  Flint situation is so visible because generally the gov't does a great job at regulating water quality. We are not there on greenhouse gas pollution, but the EPA has done some wonderful work on particulate pollution. Also, remember that the old ozone hole is healing? That was helped by a consortium of governments. "Gov't" can mean so many things. This meme ("the Government can and does fuck up pretty much everything you hire them to do") is inaccurate and heavily influenced by the high profile failures that lead to availability bias.

bluGill 9y ago

> Dig yourself a well Where is the water for your well coming from? Your plan sounds good, but the details have to be got right, and we do not know how to get the details right (though we know more now that we need in the past)

balabaster 9y ago
Like in most wells, out of the ground ;) I jest... but not really. You'd be surprised just how accessible the water table is, depending on your region. If there are trees on your property, there's a reasonably good chance you're close enough to water to dig a well and get good throughput. If you're looking to buy property, look for properties that have trees that normally require a lot of water. Just by way of example, if there's a Willow tree(s) on the property, there's a good chance you've got water... and aspirin. If your question was related to contaminants and so forth, obviously you have to be aware of where the water is flowing from upstream. If you're downstream of a high contamination zone, your only real choice is to move, sadly.
- bluGill 9y ago
  My question was related to aquifer depletion. Some deserts have great soil, but there isn't enough water to grow anything, try to dig a well and the well will go dry. Contaminants are a valid question too though.
  - balabaster 9y ago
    This would definitely be another situation you'd need to consider relocation. In that situation, you'd need to find alternative measures to become more sustainable. Like living in the city, the measures you take would look significantly different than someone living in the green zone.

random28345 9y ago

I want to move to this libertarian paradise where I'm not affected by externalities and acting selfishly is always pareto efficient. I want to live in this magical place where we don't need government. Where is it?

balabaster 9y ago
Nobody suggested you don't need Government. I do believe in an effective Government. What I don't believe is that the Government has to this point been as effective as the tax payers should be holding them to account.

chicob 9y ago

> Build your own ecosystem and let the rest of society go to hell. Eventually, if you do it properly, you'll be the only one left with farmable land, you'll be bought out for a handsome price and you take your newfound riches and fuck off to somewhere that doesn't have this problem yet and do it all again. Actually, that is not correct. If your neighbour uses fertilizers in excess, your well will be contaminated through drainage. Then you have to adjust your own fertilizer's NPK levels, by subtracting the NPK levels on your contaminated water. Unfortunately, this often saturates, but you still have to fertilize because ammonia/urea and their salts degrade and are easily dissolved in water thus improving acidity and draining fast. If your neighbours use insecticide in excess, your pollination rates drop as well, and so your yields. If your neighbours use the wrong kind of fungicide, mycorrhizae will suffer, and so will your crops if they depend on them. > It doesn't matter if anyone believes in it or not. Yes it does. If you believe that you will be the last farmer standing, you're wrong. Your yields will drop as well. It's like a stampede: you can't stop it, you can just join everyone and run. Unless people organize and stop the madness. Putting my money where my mouth is doesn't work because other peoples' actions count. >If you believe big agriculture is destroying the planet, find a sustainable way to not support them I try every effin day. But it turns out everyone has to do it, otherwise it's just (collective) suicide.

balabaster 9y ago
I was being slightly facetious when I suggested you'd be the last farmer standing. Of course you won't be the last farmer standing. Most farmers are slowly coming around to the fact that their actions affect future generations of crop growth and are making changes. You will not be the last farmer standing. Sure, you've gotta put in time, effort and even money to make it go, but overall it's not as expensive as you're led to believe. I do this every day, this is the life I live. Sure it has its problems to negotiate and master, but it's doable. I know this, because I do it.
- chicob 9y ago
  I was not referring to myself or you, but to the hypothetical farmer taking actions only in his self interest. >I know this, because I do it. I didn't want to imply that there was no solution for this problem. I only stated, from my own perspective as a farmer, how hard it is.