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If theft is involuntary taking of other people's money, then tax is theft. Employing every legal trick to minimize taxes is moral and encouraged.
by atemerev 9y ago
If theft is involuntary taking of other people's money, then tax is theft. Employing every legal trick to minimize taxes is moral and encouraged.
- Bjartr 9y agoSome pay taxes voluntarily.
- kaffeemitsahne 9y agoJust like governments have a monopoly on violence, they also (somewhat consequentially) have a monopoly on theft. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence
- beaconstudios 9y agobasing states' moral rights on the monopoly of violence (instead of secondary concerns like avoiding the tragedy of the commons and establishing a baseline living standard) opens the door to justifying pretty much any violent state action. Governments having a monopoly on violence means they technically have a monopoly on genocide too, but that doesn't mean it's morally acceptable.
- ThomPete 9y agoAnd just about any violent state action happens various places and nations get away with that all the time. A lot of people are confusing what reality is with how we want it to be.
- ThomPete 9y agoTheft is defined by law so no Tax is not theft. There isn't an objective definition of theft. No one owns anything by any other definition than what society or the strongest define.
- atemerev 9y agoIn th natural/positive law debate, I am strongly on the natural side.
- ThomPete 9y agoWhat natural side? Where do you ultimately get the right to ownership from if not purely from your ability to fight for your claim to ownership? It just doesn't exist "out there"
- atemerev 9y agoSome arbitrary atrocities were made legal at some points in history. Were they morally more acceptable after that?
- ThomPete 9y agoNo. But society functioned better after we agreed to personal ownership. To maintain that though there is a price, that price is taxes. If you want to not pay taxes you either must take the punishment, fight to become the defining power of said society or move to somewhere you don't have to pay taxes.
- VMG 9y agoA person owns himself or herself. Slavery is immoral and wrong even where it is legal or was legal.
- ThomPete 9y agoNo they dont own themself there is no such thing in nature as owning yourself. It's something we have agreed upon over thousands of years but you don't actually own yourself. If you are the strongest you can stand for yourself but there is no natural law that prevents someone from making you a slave of them.
- Xylakant 9y agoIf red is blue, then tax is theft. From a false premise, all conclusions can be drawn. Theft is not taking involuntarily. Theft is taking illegally which is an important distinction to make. I take your watch. I want to keep it. It's taken from me against my will. That's certainly not theft.
- atemerev 9y agoIs law arbitrary? Slavery was legal once. Was slavery OK back then?
- ebbv 9y agoTaxation is not theft in a democracy. If you don't like the taxes, campaign to have them changed. Or move to another country. We as a society agree to the taxes we have through our elected officials who represent us.
- atemerev 9y agoYour argument is also applicable to slavery or racial segregation.
- ebbv 9y agoNo, it isn't, my dude. That comparison is not only ridiculous but offensive. With slavery, the slaves don't get a voice. They can't choose to not be slaves. With taxation in a democracy you can choose to run for office and change the laws yourself if you really wanted. Or you can just work to get someone else who better represents your views elected. With racial segregation, again, the victims don't get a voice. They are prevented from voting, they are intimidated and oppressed. You are not being oppressed because we've chosen to pay taxes to fix the roads and take care of the elderly.
- thrwaw-77 9y agoNot if slaves/segregated are minority.
- Signez 9y ago> Employing every legal trick to minimize taxes is moral and encouraged. That's your opinion. Many people disagree that minimizing taxes through tricks and borderline "optimization" is moral (see: tax avoidance [0]). Not everybody shares the same moral compass, as it is linked to many factors, including your political beliefs, country, education, etc. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avoidance#Public_opinion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avoidance#Public_opinion
- Flimm 9y agoFrom the Hacker News Guidelines: > Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them.
- atemerev 9y agoWell, the original post is still not flagged, and the topic is started there, not by my comment.