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Zumwalt F-35 USS Ford It reminds me of Qing China in the 1890's. "On paper, the Beiyang Fleet had the superior ships,[2] included two pre-dreadnought battle

by meric 9y ago

Zumwalt F-35 USS Ford It reminds me of Qing China in the 1890's. "On paper, the Beiyang Fleet had the superior ships,[2] included two pre-dreadnought battleships, Dingyuan and Zhenyuan, for which the Japanese had no counterparts. "....."Though well drilled, the Chinese had not engaged in sufficient gunnery practice beforehand. This lack of training was the direct result of a serious lack of ammunition. Corruption seems to have played a major role; many Chinese shells appear to have been filled with cement or porcelain, or were the wrong caliber and could not be fired." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Yalu_River_(1894) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Yalu_River_(1894... "Li wanted to delay the battle against the Japanese fleet, thus allowing the Chinese more time to equip their ships with additional ammunition. However, the imperial court called him a coward and his recommendation was turned down." "Defense spending analyst Winslow Wheeler concluded from flight evaluation reports that the F-35A "is flawed beyond redemption";[196] in response, program manager Bogdan suggested that pilots worried about being shot down should fly cargo aircraft instead."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Concerns_over_performance_and_safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning... I don't think U.S. is at the terminal stage yet, as Qing China was at that time - but it certainly rhymes.

abraves10001 9y ago
On another failed warship note, the Vasa, built in Sweden in the 1620's barely made it off the dock before sinking but was amazingly well preserved. Worth seeing if you are in Stockholm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship)
- ams6110 9y ago
  The story of the Vasa is a great lesson on the dangers of changing specifications while a project is underway. Not exactly the lesson of the apparent debacle of the Ford, which is more a lesson on the dangers of using a lot of new unproven technology in a major project.
  - SEJeff 9y ago
    In fact... Pete Cheslock just gave a talk regarding the Vasa and how it applies to engineering anything, but software especially: https://www.slideshare.net/petecheslock/the-vasa-redux https://www.slideshare.net/petecheslock/the-vasa-redux And he actually did a quick lightning talk (5 minutes) on it the year prior at Monitorama: https://pete.wtf/vasa/ https://pete.wtf/vasa/ It was a very funny and well done presentation. Definitely worth watching.
mjbellantoni 9y ago
Don't forget the LCS.
- johan_larson 9y ago
  Yeah, I don't know why the littoral combat ship was such a big problem. It's for near-shore patrol, which has to be the easiest job any navy has to do. Even the really piddly ones have to deal with that, and they do so with a wide variety of patrol boats, corvettes, and frigates. The USN could have picked any one of dozens of designs in current operation, made a few tweaks for taste, and put them in service.
justicezyx 9y ago
The analogy seems poor. Qing's warships are just good on paper, but the men in charge of them lack actual real-world experiences wielding them effectively. While F35 Zumwalt Ford are all products driven by US military's real-world experiences, guided by their requirements, and addresses real issues. And I have no doubt that these weapons can be used effectively in their designated use cases. Their failure is that the engineering work did not finish quick enough to land their impact in appropriate time frame.
- meric 9y ago
  Prompted by the November 22, 2016, break-down of Zumwalt in the Panama Canal with both propellers seized, Mike Fredenburg analyzed the program for the National Review and concluded that the ship's problems "are emblematic of a defense procurement system that is rapidly losing its ability to meet our national security needs."[93] After detailing problems relating to the skyrocketing costs, lack of accountability, unrealistic goals, a flawed concept of operations, the perils of designing a warship around stealth, as well as the failure of the Advanced Gun System, Fredenburg concludes: The Zumwalt is an unmitigated disaster. Clearly it is not a good fit as a frontline warship. With its guns neutered, its role as a primary anti-submarine-warfare asset in question, its anti-air-warfare capabilities inferior to those of our current workhorse, the Arleigh Burke-class destroyers, and its stealth not nearly as advantageous as advertised, the Zumwalt seems to be a ship without a mission. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt-class_destroyer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt-class_destroyer
  - Boothroid 9y ago
    Would make a nice super yacht though, all those fancy angles.
- cameldrv 9y ago
  The analogy seems perfect. http://www.defensenews.com/articles/new-warships-big-guns-have-no-bullets http://www.defensenews.com/articles/new-warships-big-guns-ha... Even down to the serious opioid problem we are having.
- 9y ago

by meric 9y ago

abraves10001 9y ago

On another failed warship note, the Vasa, built in Sweden in the 1620's barely made it off the dock before sinking but was amazingly well preserved. Worth seeing if you are in Stockholm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship)

ams6110 9y ago
The story of the Vasa is a great lesson on the dangers of changing specifications while a project is underway. Not exactly the lesson of the apparent debacle of the Ford, which is more a lesson on the dangers of using a lot of new unproven technology in a major project.
- SEJeff 9y ago
  In fact... Pete Cheslock just gave a talk regarding the Vasa and how it applies to engineering anything, but software especially: https://www.slideshare.net/petecheslock/the-vasa-redux https://www.slideshare.net/petecheslock/the-vasa-redux And he actually did a quick lightning talk (5 minutes) on it the year prior at Monitorama: https://pete.wtf/vasa/ https://pete.wtf/vasa/ It was a very funny and well done presentation. Definitely worth watching.

mjbellantoni 9y ago

Don't forget the LCS.

johan_larson 9y ago
Yeah, I don't know why the littoral combat ship was such a big problem. It's for near-shore patrol, which has to be the easiest job any navy has to do. Even the really piddly ones have to deal with that, and they do so with a wide variety of patrol boats, corvettes, and frigates. The USN could have picked any one of dozens of designs in current operation, made a few tweaks for taste, and put them in service.

justicezyx 9y ago

The analogy seems poor. Qing's warships are just good on paper, but the men in charge of them lack actual real-world experiences wielding them effectively. While F35 Zumwalt Ford are all products driven by US military's real-world experiences, guided by their requirements, and addresses real issues. And I have no doubt that these weapons can be used effectively in their designated use cases. Their failure is that the engineering work did not finish quick enough to land their impact in appropriate time frame.

meric 9y ago
Prompted by the November 22, 2016, break-down of Zumwalt in the Panama Canal with both propellers seized, Mike Fredenburg analyzed the program for the National Review and concluded that the ship's problems "are emblematic of a defense procurement system that is rapidly losing its ability to meet our national security needs."[93] After detailing problems relating to the skyrocketing costs, lack of accountability, unrealistic goals, a flawed concept of operations, the perils of designing a warship around stealth, as well as the failure of the Advanced Gun System, Fredenburg concludes: The Zumwalt is an unmitigated disaster. Clearly it is not a good fit as a frontline warship. With its guns neutered, its role as a primary anti-submarine-warfare asset in question, its anti-air-warfare capabilities inferior to those of our current workhorse, the Arleigh Burke-class destroyers, and its stealth not nearly as advantageous as advertised, the Zumwalt seems to be a ship without a mission. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt-class_destroyer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt-class_destroyer
- Boothroid 9y ago
  Would make a nice super yacht though, all those fancy angles.
cameldrv 9y ago
The analogy seems perfect. http://www.defensenews.com/articles/new-warships-big-guns-have-no-bullets http://www.defensenews.com/articles/new-warships-big-guns-ha... Even down to the serious opioid problem we are having.
9y ago