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From what I gather, it does get done to women more than to men. From my perspective, an even bigger problem is that women are more expected to just take it. Ha
by Mz 9y ago
From what I gather, it does get done to women more than to men. From my perspective, an even bigger problem is that women are more expected to just take it.
Having read the piece, it is by a woman who spoke up and said "Let her speak, please" and that's fine. But I have mixed feelings about the title of this piece and how it looks before you read it, because white knighting is a big problem for women. Men coming to the rescue of some damsel in distress and championing her often just deepens the problem. It often simply reinforces the idea that the only role women are allowed to play is that of victim and any justice that happens will be credited to some heroic guy. It often gets done in a way that in no way empowers her. It is frequently just some guy coming in, playing hero and getting pats on the back and when he goes off stage, her situation remains just as crappy and disempowered as before.
I am a woman and I personally don't have any problem with giving the guys push back and that gets me perceived as incredibly confrontational and fighty. At one time, my account on HN was rate limited. My feeling on that is that simply standing up for myself as a woman who often gets a lot of pushback merely for being a demographic outlier was being punished. That winds up a no win situation for women. If you don't stand up for yourself, you get walked on. If you do, you can be actively punished for it.
To be fair, the current mod team on HN has been great. I am sure they often find me cringe-worthy, but they have made me feel much more like I can report people who are really engaging in bad behavior towards me that is beyond the pale and much more like I can stand my ground without fear that doing so is highly likely to get me banned, no matter how reasonable I am about it.
Hacker News has generally been great about putting up with my outrageous agenda* to open my mouth here and engage in conversation on equal footing with the guys. I am well aware that is a shocking expectation and is simply Not Done in so many spaces, both online and off. I want to thank everyone here for being so good about that.
* http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/11/my-agenda-for-hacker-news.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/11/my-agenda-fo...
- mpweiher 9y ago> women are more expected to just take it. Or women, in general, just don't want the bother. > giving the guys push back Excellent. Too many women don't, in my experience. In my personal experience, I find women not standing up for themselves in the situation at hand, and then complaining about it for ages after. > highly likely to get me banned, no matter how reasonable I am about it. That seems unlikely. If you are getting banned, maybe you're not being reasonable about it? > If you do, you can be actively punished for it. This is not a women-only issue. Men get "punished" just as much for unpopular opinions. Just like they get talked over if they let themselves be talked over. etc.
- watwut 9y ago> Excellent. Too many women don't, in my experience. In my personal experience, I find women not standing up for themselves in the situation at hand, and then complaining about it for ages after. That complaining about it is pushing back. And you whine about it right now.
- mpweiher 9y agoDid you even understand that sentence? Let me clear it up. The "not standing up for themselves" is in the actual situation, against the actual person they need to stand up against. The "complaining afterward" is after the situation has passed, and complaining to a completely different person not involved in the original interaction. That is the exact opposite of "standing up for yourself", and it is also not "pushing back", because in order for it to be a push "back", it has to be a push against the original force, not against some random other person. If I got berated by my boss, which I just let happen, and then reacted by, a while later, berating you, a completely uninvolved third party, would you consider that "standing up for myself" and "pushing back"?
- qb45 9y agoThey don't stand up for themselves because they are often outnumbered and/or outmuscled and habitually don't believe that we have their back, for various reasons.
- mpweiher 9y agoYou understand the meaning of "for yourself", right? It exactly means standing up, well, for yourself, and not relying on or waiting for others.
- watwut 9y agoIf you stand up and get punished and ostracised/mocked as a result then standing up did you no good. You will learn not to do it. Stand up thing worked great in this story. I trust you that your relative could suceed in standing up instead of being treated as crazy bad women. A lot of it is residuum from old times when gender roles were different and some of both genders keep going old way. Her existence does not excuse dudes who attempt to dominate women more them men. I did won those fights in the past, but the older I am the less I care about whether it was intentional or subconscious. It affects me all the same. That is why stories like this are good to hear about - it is good role model for women lime your relative - to see that she can stop the dude, not to consider his interest and win. Maybe you could show her the story to make her inspired for that.