8 ms·

People get talked over by people. I see this all the time and it's generally sexless. As a consultant I've helped at least 100 teams have crucial conversations

People get talked over by people. I see this all the time and it's generally sexless. As a consultant I've helped at least 100 teams have crucial conversations across tens of businesses. I don't get the constant refrain that this is a male vs. female thing.

devnonymous 9y ago
Reading the comments here I am surprised at all the people who are claiming that people get talked over by other people all the time and it has nothing to do with sex. I mean, yeah there's no denying that there exist pushy jerks who are jerks to everyone but guess what? those kinds are more likely to be even greater jerks with women. So either this guy was a regular jerk talking over her because she was a woman or being that special kind of jerk who normally talks over some men but talks over most women. Why is there an difference of opinion about this? Does anyone really think there is a breed of jerks who talk over some/most men but will never do that/will do less of that to a woman?
- complexmango 9y ago
  That precludes the breed of jerks who will talk over anybody that will tolerate it. What makes you think there aren't women who also like to claim the center of attention, regardless of other men OR women around them? I don't understand this need to idolize one sex over the other, when the issue is that some people (like this moderator) are just more tone deaf or inconsiderate than others. Equality between sexes implies treating everyone as a human rather than assuming that this moderator is a stand-in for men in general.
  - devnonymous 9y ago
    > That precludes the breed of jerks who will talk over anybody that will tolerate it So are you claiming that those sort of jerks are not going to be extra nasty to women that will tolerate it? That they are going to be equally nasty to people of both sexes? If that's what you're claiming, I'll humbly disagree but won't engage any further. > What makes you think there aren't women who also like to claim the center of attention, regardless of other men OR women around them? I never claimed that there aren't such women. Indeed there exist women who behave worse with other women than they do with men. But then what's your point? Women being sexist doesn't make it okay for men to continue to be so now, does it?
    - d0lph 9y ago
      I think his point was that this is not an example of sexism because such people will talk over any gender. Now perhaps these types of people will talk over women more, but in this case it seems this guy is just a jerk talking over either gender.
    - weberc2 9y ago
      This has been my experience. My wife claims the opposite experience; people (male or female) who are usually rude to men are less prone to be rude to her or other women. Of course, being more of a jerk to men than to women is, apparently, the worst kind of sexism and the very reason women need feminism. Or something.
    - mpweiher 9y ago
      > So are you claiming that those sort of jerks are not going to be extra nasty to women that will tolerate it? That is also my observation. We are just vastly more sensitive to aggressive/jerk behavior against women ("protect the women"), and this is highly emotionally charged for most people. For a rough intro into the phenomenon, check out the youtube videos comparing bystander reactions to the exact same behavior in a woman -> man vs. a man -> woman setting.
lubesGordi 9y ago
Totally, this is her political perception grid overlaying reality. If Jim Holt or whoever thought that her theories were contradictory, then likely he would've talked over whoever was sitting there, regardless of sex. It could have had as much to do with his condescension to what he perceived as an inferior theory as anything.
- zamalek 9y ago
  > theories were contradictory That's actually a desirable quality. It means that you are not emotionally attached to your theories (you shouldn't be, it's science not religion) and are willing to contradict them. Still, most people would think that a bad thing.
gpawl 9y ago
Your anecdote of your fuzzy memory is not research. When measurements are taken, there is a clear pattern: https://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2017/01/03/gal-interrupted-why-men-interrupt-women-and-how-to-avert-this-in-the-workplace/#32635baf17c3 https://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2017/01/03/gal-inte... https://hbr.org/2017/04/female-supreme-court-justices-are-interrupted-more-by-male-justices-and-advocates https://hbr.org/2017/04/female-supreme-court-justices-are-in... http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2015/03/19/google-chief-blasted-for-repeatedly-interrupting-female-government-official/ http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2015/03/19/google...
- Harimwakairi 9y ago
  Thanks for bringing data.
- f4rker 9y ago
  A few links to NY Times and Forbes is also not research. Whatever gender is in the minority will often be talked over.
- _Codemonkeyism 9y ago
  Your fuzzy memory is not research so I quote the three top scientific magazines: Forbes, HBR [1] & NYT. (If you look in the articles, they quote studies with 20 participants. At university I would have been destroyed when making fundamental claims on a sample size of 20). And yes my gut feeling tells me women get interrupted more often. And from this comment you may assume I'm guilty of this, though my bad social habits probably interrupt men as often. [1] the magazine of business anecdotes.
  - burkaman 9y ago
    Here's one with 216 participants, and a whole bunch of citations that might be interesting: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1046496404263728 http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1046496404263728 Another one from 1989 with 186 participants: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250069045_Interruptions_in_Group_Discussions_The_Effects_of_Gender_and_Group_Composition https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250069045_Interrupt...
elif 9y ago
My suspicion is that it is based largely upon context. I would postulate that academia and journalism are still pretty sexist compared to the 'tens of businesses' you observed. Potentially in support of your perspective: I see the overspeaking roles inverted in the context of reality TV shows, though that could potentially be seen as a counter-action to normal social roles which develops as structure of society is removed... which would imply the sexist paradigm is the prevalent one.
- ryanmarsh 9y ago
  > I would postulate that academia and journalism are still pretty sexist Two industries I have not had the pleasure of engaging with. My coaching experience has been around healthcare, insurance, banking, transportation, energy, construction, software, audit, and a few other random things.
Mz 9y ago
From what I gather, it does get done to women more than to men. From my perspective, an even bigger problem is that women are more expected to just take it. Having read the piece, it is by a woman who spoke up and said "Let her speak, please" and that's fine. But I have mixed feelings about the title of this piece and how it looks before you read it, because white knighting is a big problem for women. Men coming to the rescue of some damsel in distress and championing her often just deepens the problem. It often simply reinforces the idea that the only role women are allowed to play is that of victim and any justice that happens will be credited to some heroic guy. It often gets done in a way that in no way empowers her. It is frequently just some guy coming in, playing hero and getting pats on the back and when he goes off stage, her situation remains just as crappy and disempowered as before. I am a woman and I personally don't have any problem with giving the guys push back and that gets me perceived as incredibly confrontational and fighty. At one time, my account on HN was rate limited. My feeling on that is that simply standing up for myself as a woman who often gets a lot of pushback merely for being a demographic outlier was being punished. That winds up a no win situation for women. If you don't stand up for yourself, you get walked on. If you do, you can be actively punished for it. To be fair, the current mod team on HN has been great. I am sure they often find me cringe-worthy, but they have made me feel much more like I can report people who are really engaging in bad behavior towards me that is beyond the pale and much more like I can stand my ground without fear that doing so is highly likely to get me banned, no matter how reasonable I am about it. Hacker News has generally been great about putting up with my outrageous agenda* to open my mouth here and engage in conversation on equal footing with the guys. I am well aware that is a shocking expectation and is simply Not Done in so many spaces, both online and off. I want to thank everyone here for being so good about that. * http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/11/my-agenda-for-hacker-news.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/11/my-agenda-fo...
- mpweiher 9y ago
  > women are more expected to just take it. Or women, in general, just don't want the bother. > giving the guys push back Excellent. Too many women don't, in my experience. In my personal experience, I find women not standing up for themselves in the situation at hand, and then complaining about it for ages after. > highly likely to get me banned, no matter how reasonable I am about it. That seems unlikely. If you are getting banned, maybe you're not being reasonable about it? > If you do, you can be actively punished for it. This is not a women-only issue. Men get "punished" just as much for unpopular opinions. Just like they get talked over if they let themselves be talked over. etc.
jjtheblunt 9y ago
what you describe matches my observations too: i see it happen in both directions, with the most pushy example being, in what i see, certain women talking over everyone regardless of gender. it's just a personality trait, perhaps?
syngrog66 9y ago
thank you for saying this, and be willing to be downvoted by the PC hivemind. I've personally long given up trying to share a non-PC-orthodox view here on this topic
exadeci 9y ago
If it was a men complaining about the same situation women would be the first to tell him to man up and speak up.
kapauldo 9y ago
I'm guessing you're male.
Sharon_Barnden 9y ago
Yes they do Ryan. And it's something we need to stop. In this particular case though the female expert was asked a question related to her own very specialised area of expertise by the male host, AND then the person asking the question (a) answered on her behalf, (b) then talked over her when she tried to answer, and (c) then made fun of her when her response was to laugh at the absurdity of the situation. Truly appalling especially when for over an hour the other all male members of the panel had spoken at length without interruption.

devnonymous 9y ago

Reading the comments here I am surprised at all the people who are claiming that people get talked over by other people all the time and it has nothing to do with sex. I mean, yeah there's no denying that there exist pushy jerks who are jerks to everyone but guess what? those kinds are more likely to be even greater jerks with women. So either this guy was a regular jerk talking over her because she was a woman or being that special kind of jerk who normally talks over some men but talks over most women. Why is there an difference of opinion about this? Does anyone really think there is a breed of jerks who talk over some/most men but will never do that/will do less of that to a woman?

complexmango 9y ago
That precludes the breed of jerks who will talk over anybody that will tolerate it. What makes you think there aren't women who also like to claim the center of attention, regardless of other men OR women around them? I don't understand this need to idolize one sex over the other, when the issue is that some people (like this moderator) are just more tone deaf or inconsiderate than others. Equality between sexes implies treating everyone as a human rather than assuming that this moderator is a stand-in for men in general.
- devnonymous 9y ago
  > That precludes the breed of jerks who will talk over anybody that will tolerate it So are you claiming that those sort of jerks are not going to be extra nasty to women that will tolerate it? That they are going to be equally nasty to people of both sexes? If that's what you're claiming, I'll humbly disagree but won't engage any further. > What makes you think there aren't women who also like to claim the center of attention, regardless of other men OR women around them? I never claimed that there aren't such women. Indeed there exist women who behave worse with other women than they do with men. But then what's your point? Women being sexist doesn't make it okay for men to continue to be so now, does it?
  - d0lph 9y ago
    I think his point was that this is not an example of sexism because such people will talk over any gender. Now perhaps these types of people will talk over women more, but in this case it seems this guy is just a jerk talking over either gender.
  - weberc2 9y ago
    This has been my experience. My wife claims the opposite experience; people (male or female) who are usually rude to men are less prone to be rude to her or other women. Of course, being more of a jerk to men than to women is, apparently, the worst kind of sexism and the very reason women need feminism. Or something.
  - mpweiher 9y ago
    > So are you claiming that those sort of jerks are not going to be extra nasty to women that will tolerate it? That is also my observation. We are just vastly more sensitive to aggressive/jerk behavior against women ("protect the women"), and this is highly emotionally charged for most people. For a rough intro into the phenomenon, check out the youtube videos comparing bystander reactions to the exact same behavior in a woman -> man vs. a man -> woman setting.

lubesGordi 9y ago

Totally, this is her political perception grid overlaying reality. If Jim Holt or whoever thought that her theories were contradictory, then likely he would've talked over whoever was sitting there, regardless of sex. It could have had as much to do with his condescension to what he perceived as an inferior theory as anything.

zamalek 9y ago
> theories were contradictory That's actually a desirable quality. It means that you are not emotionally attached to your theories (you shouldn't be, it's science not religion) and are willing to contradict them. Still, most people would think that a bad thing.

gpawl 9y ago

Your anecdote of your fuzzy memory is not research. When measurements are taken, there is a clear pattern: https://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2017/01/03/gal-interrupted-why-men-interrupt-women-and-how-to-avert-this-in-the-workplace/#32635baf17c3 https://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2017/01/03/gal-inte... https://hbr.org/2017/04/female-supreme-court-justices-are-interrupted-more-by-male-justices-and-advocates https://hbr.org/2017/04/female-supreme-court-justices-are-in... http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2015/03/19/google-chief-blasted-for-repeatedly-interrupting-female-government-official/ http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2015/03/19/google...

Harimwakairi 9y ago
Thanks for bringing data.
f4rker 9y ago
A few links to NY Times and Forbes is also not research. Whatever gender is in the minority will often be talked over.
_Codemonkeyism 9y ago
Your fuzzy memory is not research so I quote the three top scientific magazines: Forbes, HBR [1] & NYT. (If you look in the articles, they quote studies with 20 participants. At university I would have been destroyed when making fundamental claims on a sample size of 20). And yes my gut feeling tells me women get interrupted more often. And from this comment you may assume I'm guilty of this, though my bad social habits probably interrupt men as often. [1] the magazine of business anecdotes.
- burkaman 9y ago
  Here's one with 216 participants, and a whole bunch of citations that might be interesting: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1046496404263728 http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1046496404263728 Another one from 1989 with 186 participants: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250069045_Interruptions_in_Group_Discussions_The_Effects_of_Gender_and_Group_Composition https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250069045_Interrupt...

elif 9y ago

My suspicion is that it is based largely upon context. I would postulate that academia and journalism are still pretty sexist compared to the 'tens of businesses' you observed. Potentially in support of your perspective: I see the overspeaking roles inverted in the context of reality TV shows, though that could potentially be seen as a counter-action to normal social roles which develops as structure of society is removed... which would imply the sexist paradigm is the prevalent one.

ryanmarsh 9y ago
> I would postulate that academia and journalism are still pretty sexist Two industries I have not had the pleasure of engaging with. My coaching experience has been around healthcare, insurance, banking, transportation, energy, construction, software, audit, and a few other random things.

Mz 9y ago

From what I gather, it does get done to women more than to men. From my perspective, an even bigger problem is that women are more expected to just take it. Having read the piece, it is by a woman who spoke up and said "Let her speak, please" and that's fine. But I have mixed feelings about the title of this piece and how it looks before you read it, because white knighting is a big problem for women. Men coming to the rescue of some damsel in distress and championing her often just deepens the problem. It often simply reinforces the idea that the only role women are allowed to play is that of victim and any justice that happens will be credited to some heroic guy. It often gets done in a way that in no way empowers her. It is frequently just some guy coming in, playing hero and getting pats on the back and when he goes off stage, her situation remains just as crappy and disempowered as before. I am a woman and I personally don't have any problem with giving the guys push back and that gets me perceived as incredibly confrontational and fighty. At one time, my account on HN was rate limited. My feeling on that is that simply standing up for myself as a woman who often gets a lot of pushback merely for being a demographic outlier was being punished. That winds up a no win situation for women. If you don't stand up for yourself, you get walked on. If you do, you can be actively punished for it. To be fair, the current mod team on HN has been great. I am sure they often find me cringe-worthy, but they have made me feel much more like I can report people who are really engaging in bad behavior towards me that is beyond the pale and much more like I can stand my ground without fear that doing so is highly likely to get me banned, no matter how reasonable I am about it. Hacker News has generally been great about putting up with my outrageous agenda* to open my mouth here and engage in conversation on equal footing with the guys. I am well aware that is a shocking expectation and is simply Not Done in so many spaces, both online and off. I want to thank everyone here for being so good about that. * http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/11/my-agenda-for-hacker-news.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/11/my-agenda-fo...

mpweiher 9y ago
> women are more expected to just take it. Or women, in general, just don't want the bother. > giving the guys push back Excellent. Too many women don't, in my experience. In my personal experience, I find women not standing up for themselves in the situation at hand, and then complaining about it for ages after. > highly likely to get me banned, no matter how reasonable I am about it. That seems unlikely. If you are getting banned, maybe you're not being reasonable about it? > If you do, you can be actively punished for it. This is not a women-only issue. Men get "punished" just as much for unpopular opinions. Just like they get talked over if they let themselves be talked over. etc.

jjtheblunt 9y ago

what you describe matches my observations too: i see it happen in both directions, with the most pushy example being, in what i see, certain women talking over everyone regardless of gender. it's just a personality trait, perhaps?

syngrog66 9y ago

thank you for saying this, and be willing to be downvoted by the PC hivemind. I've personally long given up trying to share a non-PC-orthodox view here on this topic

exadeci 9y ago

If it was a men complaining about the same situation women would be the first to tell him to man up and speak up.

kapauldo 9y ago

I'm guessing you're male.

Sharon_Barnden 9y ago

Yes they do Ryan. And it's something we need to stop. In this particular case though the female expert was asked a question related to her own very specialised area of expertise by the male host, AND then the person asking the question (a) answered on her behalf, (b) then talked over her when she tried to answer, and (c) then made fun of her when her response was to laugh at the absurdity of the situation. Truly appalling especially when for over an hour the other all male members of the panel had spoken at length without interruption.