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Are you saying we should fix when people geek out about a topic and ramble? If so, I agree. But good luck making progress on that!

vog 9y ago
It may be uncomfortable, but it's the only way to make cultural progress. You should especially take care of that if you have any major position in a larger group, not matter if it is a company department, an open-source project or a user-group. If nobody cares visibly about social behaviour, that group is either doomed and won't achieve anything in the long run. Or it reduces a very low number of active participants - usually just one.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- ShannonAlther 9y ago
  "Prevent all potentially offensive behaviour" is not a valid solution. What constitutes offense is subjective, and furthermore the topic at hand is sexism.
  - vog 9y ago
    The issue at hand is an example for precisely the opposite. Everybody agrees that the moderator's behaviour was inappropriate, the discussion is mostly about how bad it was (what should the consequences be?) and the label (sexism or not?). More general, regarding subjectivity: Although the individual members of a group or society have different subjective standards, they can still find some common ground on what behaviour they accept or don't accept. You'll find such emerging consent not just in informal rules about social behaviour, but also in formal rules which we call "laws".
    - ShannonAlther 9y ago
      You're using a different definition of 'offensive' than I am. Also, note that no societies we regard highly have outlawed talking over people. Unless your plan is to modify institutions to reduce offensive behaviour you won't have much luck.
      - vog 9y ago
        I don't get what you are trying to say. I clearly put "talking over people" into the category of informal social rules, not law.
        ShannonAlther 9y ago
        Yes you did, but then you said that the solution is to reform society so that informal social rules are never broken. And I'm saying that unless you want to make those rules into laws, or something like laws, it's not doable.
        vog 9y ago
        I still don't get it. Who said that informal social rules shall never never broken? Who talked about reforming society? I was just talking about making cultural progress. All I said is that informal rules are established (almost by definition) by reacting to those who break them. Doing so reduces the chances that these are broken again, which is just another way of saying that these informal rules are established. And if a good climate within a group is important to you (in a leading position it usually is), then you need to be part of establishing those. Otherwise you risk that your group becomes a hostile place. The strategy I described does work, and is generally recommended, so I'm not sure what you are arguing against. I've seen it working in various groups. If shitty behaviour is criticized as such, people become more aware and more careful. As long as the criticism itself is in an appropriate place and reflects the group's values, this is a very healthy thing to do. If the criticized person refuses to adjust their behaviour, they usually leave the group on their own, which is also healthy. In the worst case there's to way but to throw them out, but that is surprisingly seldom. Either way, these people either have to find a group that is okay with their behaviour (good luck!), or they need to change their behaviour in order to engage in groups.
watwut 9y ago
Whether sexism or not, if you are moderator and ramble like that, you are doing it wrong. Meaning someone more capable should take your position next time.
vacri 9y ago
In the context of being a moderator for a panel of people who have gathered specifically to talk about their things, yes, it's a bad thing to geek out and ramble over someone. The audience haven't gathered to listen to the moderator crap on; they're there for the panelists. Chairing a panel of professionals isn't about you getting to talk to them, it's about showcasing their positions for the audience. "Aw, he just got excited" is not an excuse in this context.

vog 9y ago

It may be uncomfortable, but it's the only way to make cultural progress. You should especially take care of that if you have any major position in a larger group, not matter if it is a company department, an open-source project or a user-group. If nobody cares visibly about social behaviour, that group is either doomed and won't achieve anything in the long run. Or it reduces a very low number of active participants - usually just one.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
ShannonAlther 9y ago
"Prevent all potentially offensive behaviour" is not a valid solution. What constitutes offense is subjective, and furthermore the topic at hand is sexism.
- vog 9y ago
  The issue at hand is an example for precisely the opposite. Everybody agrees that the moderator's behaviour was inappropriate, the discussion is mostly about how bad it was (what should the consequences be?) and the label (sexism or not?). More general, regarding subjectivity: Although the individual members of a group or society have different subjective standards, they can still find some common ground on what behaviour they accept or don't accept. You'll find such emerging consent not just in informal rules about social behaviour, but also in formal rules which we call "laws".
  - ShannonAlther 9y ago
    You're using a different definition of 'offensive' than I am. Also, note that no societies we regard highly have outlawed talking over people. Unless your plan is to modify institutions to reduce offensive behaviour you won't have much luck.
    - vog 9y ago
      I don't get what you are trying to say. I clearly put "talking over people" into the category of informal social rules, not law.
      - ShannonAlther 9y ago
        Yes you did, but then you said that the solution is to reform society so that informal social rules are never broken. And I'm saying that unless you want to make those rules into laws, or something like laws, it's not doable.
        vog 9y ago
        I still don't get it. Who said that informal social rules shall never never broken? Who talked about reforming society? I was just talking about making cultural progress. All I said is that informal rules are established (almost by definition) by reacting to those who break them. Doing so reduces the chances that these are broken again, which is just another way of saying that these informal rules are established. And if a good climate within a group is important to you (in a leading position it usually is), then you need to be part of establishing those. Otherwise you risk that your group becomes a hostile place. The strategy I described does work, and is generally recommended, so I'm not sure what you are arguing against. I've seen it working in various groups. If shitty behaviour is criticized as such, people become more aware and more careful. As long as the criticism itself is in an appropriate place and reflects the group's values, this is a very healthy thing to do. If the criticized person refuses to adjust their behaviour, they usually leave the group on their own, which is also healthy. In the worst case there's to way but to throw them out, but that is surprisingly seldom. Either way, these people either have to find a group that is okay with their behaviour (good luck!), or they need to change their behaviour in order to engage in groups.

watwut 9y ago

Whether sexism or not, if you are moderator and ramble like that, you are doing it wrong. Meaning someone more capable should take your position next time.

vacri 9y ago

In the context of being a moderator for a panel of people who have gathered specifically to talk about their things, yes, it's a bad thing to geek out and ramble over someone. The audience haven't gathered to listen to the moderator crap on; they're there for the panelists. Chairing a panel of professionals isn't about you getting to talk to them, it's about showcasing their positions for the audience. "Aw, he just got excited" is not an excuse in this context.