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You'd have to agree though that it's a remarkable coincidence that the moderator began to ramble when he started talking about a topic that he was particularly

• FussyZeus 9y ago
  I don't expect he set out that day to make the scientist shut up because she was a woman. A lot of sexism is so deeply rooted that it's not even hostile by the men who engage in it, it's simply the acting of the cultural norms, for example, that men can talk over women. I don't have a sexist bone in my body and I've caught myself doing this. The only way we improve as a society is to continuously monitor and correct each other because this stuff is laid so deep in our cultural consciousness that catching ourselves every time by ourselves is not reasonable to expect.
  • trendia 9y ago
    I don't think he was doing that because he was sexist, I think he was doing that because he was really excited about the duality. The only way to improve society is to recognize when things are really done with ill intent and when they're the result of: geeking out + bad social skills
    • FussyZeus 9y ago
      But again, his bad social skills only kicked in for the woman. We can't ever know for certain if it was sexism. I'm not saying take the guy out and shoot him. I'm not even saying do the thing we normally do and try and humiliate him in a public space. I'm saying: This is evidence of the accepted cultural norms in a society that I don't think anyone would disagree was largely designed by and is largely ruled over by men, and there are consequences to that.
      • deleted 9y ago
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    • vog 9y ago
      > The only way to improve society is to recognize when things are really done with ill intent I strongly disagree. We need to fix issues no matter if they had been done because of ignorance or because of ill intent. The measures and consequences should be different, but naming and fixing the issue should be independent from that. "Bad social skills" is a common excuse, but in the end, it's just another word for ignorance. Learning a few social rules is like learning design patterns, and learning not to be sexist or racist is like learning about anti-patterns. It is not harder than coding! If anything, learning social basics is easier than programming. But if you don't care, you won't learn it. Which you may choose to, but then, it's ignorance, not inability.
      • trendia 9y ago
        Are you saying we should fix when people geek out about a topic and ramble? If so, I agree. But good luck making progress on that!
        • vog 9y ago
          It may be uncomfortable, but it's the only way to make cultural progress. You should especially take care of that if you have any major position in a larger group, not matter if it is a company department, an open-source project or a user-group. If nobody cares visibly about social behaviour, that group is either doomed and won't achieve anything in the long run. Or it reduces a very low number of active participants - usually just one.
          • deleted 9y ago
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          • ShannonAlther 9y ago
            "Prevent all potentially offensive behaviour" is not a valid solution. What constitutes offense is subjective, and furthermore the topic at hand is sexism.
            • vog 9y ago
    • croon 9y ago
      The way I see it: * He was geeking out. True. * There was no ill intent. True. * He wasn't sexist. False. He could geek out all he wanted, but speaking for her multiple times over her trying to get a foot in was very sexist, regardless of intent. I hold the door for guys all the time, but if you're only doing it for "feeble girls" it is telling. This was the case in this panel. She's there because she knows her shit, let her explain it. > The only way to improve society is to recognize when things are really done with ill intent and when they're the result of: > geeking out + bad social skills No, the only way to improve society (equality wise) is to recognize when you're treating someone differently (condescendingly) only when they're one gender, however well meaning YOU think it is. Do you think it's annoying if your parent treats you like you're 10 when you're 35, even when you know they love you and they don't mean it? It's exactly like that, but it's a large portion of the population.
      • trendia 9y ago
        I've spoken to people like this moderator and they just ramble over any topic they get excited about. What specifically makes you think he rambled because she was a woman?
        • croon 9y ago
          > I've spoken to people like this moderator and they just ramble over any topic they get excited about. Sure, me too, and they're generally consistent in that between genders. This guy isn't. And people like him are very common too. > What specifically makes you think he rambled because she was a woman? By watching the entire video and comparing him to his conduct with the other panelists interviewed. She also wasn't the only non-native speaker, so it's not that either.
        • cmiles74 9y ago
          Because he did. He rambled over the only woman.
          • iiv 9y ago
            That he rambled over the only woman does not mean that he rambled over her because she is a woman.
    • orcdork 9y ago
      What about the possibility that if someone is being a douchebag, blaming their shitty behaviour on the "bad at social skills" strawman is not an excuse any more (or ever was).
      • pyroinferno 9y ago
        But a lot of the times it is the case. In SJW-speak, "You sound like an ableist who's trying to project your better social skills onto others".
        • dang 9y ago
          Please don't troll here. On HN, if you have a substantive point, make it thoughtfully; otherwise please don't post.
    • cmiles74 9y ago
      Many things that hurt people are done without ill intent. They are often done out of fear, or laziness, or ignorance. The people that do them often do them thoughtlessly or out of a belief that the reasons they do them are so self-evident that they don't deserve much thought. In my opinion, ignoring hurtful behavior because we believe the intent wasn't meant to be hurtful will only encourage these behaviors in the long run. We also do a disservice to the perpetrator, if they are truly well meaning or absent of meaning then we're robbing them of an opportunity to improve.
      • braveo 9y ago
        > In my opinion, ignoring hurtful behavior because we believe the intent wasn't meant to be hurtful will only encourage these behaviors in the long run. OTOH, maybe you should man the fuck up and move on with your life. I know that seems blunt and assholeish, but that's sort of the point. I've been offended plenty of times and talked myself down because I knew ultimately it was my emotions misinterpreting the intent. There is nothing that says just offense can't be mistaken. edit: watch someone call the phrase 'man the fuck up' sexist.
  • okreallywtf 9y ago
    TLDR Even if its not a purely sexist situation if women make up a significant percentage of the victims of this behavior I think it is OK to consider it in the context of women. Rape isn't entirely male on female, both male on male and female on male and female on female also occur but male on female rape is the most prevalent and therefore gets an appropriate proportional amount of attention. It doesn't mean thats the only way it occurs but why derail a conversation about a serious issue facing women by reminding them that they aren't 100% of the problem, just 99%. That being said, I'm not sure why you are getting downvoted but I've also found myself doing this accidentally and I've learned to moderate myself. I don't think it is necessarily related to sexism directly, but I am used to talking to people (generally other men) who similarly assertive (not to say any of us are majorly assertive, just we're all at a similar level) and we understand each others speaking style and butt in (somewhat) at the appropriate spot to make a point. When talking to someone who doesn't converse quite the same way (regardless of gender) it can be a problem. I've talked to people who won't just butt in when you are hogging the conversation and if you want to not have a 1 way conversation (ie, you are not an ass) you have to allow more space for the other person - its a basic courtesy and part of learning to have good conversations. My girlfriend has been helpful in self-identifying this situation because if I'm overly excited (coffee often being involved) she'll straight up tell me rather than putting up with it and I'll realize I was kind of rolling over her unintentionally. I have no idea if this guy is sexist or not, it may be a subtle deep rooted kind or it may be he's a terrible conversationalist/host but despite the fact that this situation probably occurs more frequently from men to women but its definitely not limited to that.
    • weberc2 9y ago
      According to the national crime victimization survey, males account for more than 1/3 of reported rape victims, and males are known to underreport compared to females. It could easily be 50/50.
      • okreallywtf 9y ago
        I think females are also known to under-report as well but its hard to know who under reports more. I meant it more as an analogy than anything else. I've seen the "but what about X" argument being used a lot lately where X and Y are the same issue that affect different groups and both are deserving of attention but one is more (maybe much more) prevalent than the other. As a means to derail a discussion of Y someone says "but what about X?" so a discussion becomes so broad and general as to be totally meaningless. In this situation, rather than being able to focus on an issue that many women face, you end up in a discussion about all of humanity and genders and personalities that will likely never address any issue at all. I have room in my head to be concerned with issues that affect different people and talking about them in the context of one group does not imply other groups do not matter but some people act as it does.
  • SCAQTony 9y ago
    Labels can ruin people. This was perhaps poor manners and should be mentioned but how can Marilee Talkington look deep into someone's "soul" by one single event and determine that they practice culturally rooted sexism? Jim Holt has now been branded from "Facebook" to "Teen Vogue" of being a de facto sexist as a result of Talkington's opinion. Talkington is an actor, director and women's rights activist which are notable pursuits.[…]
  • Joeri 9y ago
    Sexism is unavoidable, and it is not always a negative. Men hold open doors, or offer up their seat, for women more often than for men. That too is sexism, but rarely do you hear complaints. We shouldn't try to root out all sexism, because that is the same as rooting out sexuality itself. Instead we should focus on rooting out harmful sexism. But then maybe I have that opinion because I'm a man and by definition sexist, so whatever.
    • dragonwriter 9y ago
      > Sexism is unavoidable, and it is not always a negative. Men hold open doors, or offer up their seat, for women more often than for men. That too is sexism, but rarely do you hear complaints. I've often heard complaints, by women, that this inequality is sexist, patronizing and, essentially (though usually the complaint comes from people who wouldn't use the term) a micro-aggression sending the message that women are regarded as less capable of taking care of themselves. Now, these complaints usually aren't the complainants' biggest complaint about sexist behavior, but you may be confusing the fact that their are far bigger problems that drown out these complaints with these not actually being problems for women. > We shouldn't try to root out all sexism, because that is the same as rooting out sexuality itself. Sexism is not necessary for sexuality, even if it is deeply incorporated in some social norms surrounding sexuality.
• deleted 9y ago
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• gpawl 9y ago
  Why is it more important to you to prove it's "not sexism" than to be concerned that moderator did his job poorly regardless of the reason?
  • Jabanga 9y ago
    Because attributing everything to sexism has harmful societal effects.