6 ms·

I really like Apples pro-privacy stance, in contrary to Google & Microsoft. Hopefully sometime soon Apple will also encrypt iCloud contents so data from non-am

I really like Apples pro-privacy stance, in contrary to Google & Microsoft. Hopefully sometime soon Apple will also encrypt iCloud contents so data from non-american people (europe in my case) is protected against the US government prying eyes. Our data/privacy seems pretty well protected inside Europe, but in America we seem to have 0 privacy rights (America first...!)

rscott 9y ago
Most of iCloud is encrypted at rest. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
- kingnight 9y ago
  Interesting omission of iMessage here... since it's not encrypted at rest on their servers.
  - andrewksl 9y ago
    I can't tell if you're implying that they store iMessages unencrypted, but iMessage is encrypted end-to-end. Backups of your phone, which may or may not contain message histories, are only encrypted at rest.
  - kingnight 9y ago
    ^ I am implying that they are storing iMessages unencrypted. The iMessages on iPhones/iPads are part of the 'backup' for each device and they are not encrypted at rest on the iCloud server.
    - aeontech 9y ago
      You sound very sure of this, what's your source? As far as I've read, the iCloud backups have always been encrypted at rest, and Apple is apparently working on improving it to the point where they do not hold any decryption keys to the backups [0]. That's why, when you set up a new device, up until now it would not have your message history - because the message history can only be decrypted on devices that are already-authorized. If you restore a backup in its entirety, that includes the message log and the encryption key, but if you set up the device as "new", you only get the newly received messages - since it needs your password to decrypt the backup, it had no way to decrypt the message history from backup on the cloud and only sync that down to the new device (which always bothered me in terms of convenience). I think they're working on improving the usability of it in upcoming releases though. [0] https://9to5mac.com/2016/02/25/apple-working-on-stronger-icloud-backup-encryption-and-iphone-security-to-counter-fbi-unlock-requests/ https://9to5mac.com/2016/02/25/apple-working-on-stronger-icl...
      - kingnight 9y ago
        My source, while I wholly acknowledge this is anecdotal and not evidence, is someone in law enforcement tasked with retrieving message logs for investigations. I was pretty skeptical but I've yet found any proof or documentation from Apple's support docs disproving this. I also recall from the San Bernadino case that the FBI/Apple had the ability to get historic message history from the iCloud backup but the FBI pushed for decrypting the device because of the most recent and not backed up messages. As for your scenario -- doesn't that explicitly confirm that the messages are not encrypted safely at rest? You can restore to an entirely new device, using the same backup, and retrieve the messages.
        aeontech 9y ago
        > someone in law enforcement tasked with retrieving message logs for investigations. Right, but do they retrieve them from iCloud? Without Apple's assistance, and without knowing the user's password? > I was pretty skeptical but I've yet found any proof or documentation from Apple's support docs disproving this. Well, here's the brief overview: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 and here's the iOS security whitepaper: https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf Which includes a section about iCloud security, including the following section: iCloud secures the content by encrypting it when sent over the Internet, storing it in an encrypted format, and using secure tokens for authentication. I am no security expert, but I am pretty sure FBI wouldn't have a huge fight with Apple if they had any way to get to the data directly (and once they figured out they could use a vuln in the old iOS to break into the device, they did indeed drop the fight). > FBI/Apple had the ability to get historic message history from the iCloud backup Right, because they reset the shooter's Apple ID password. Not because the backup was in plaintext. > As for your scenario -- doesn't that explicitly confirm that the messages are not encrypted safely at rest? You can restore to an entirely new device, using the same backup, and retrieve the messages. How does that follow? You still need to supply your password to decrypt the backup before you can restore it. From the same security whitepaper: When files are created in Data Protection classes that aren’t accessible when the device is locked, their per-file keys are encrypted using the class keys from the iCloud Backup keybag. Files are backed up to iCloud in their original, encrypted state. Files in Data Protection class No Protection are encrypted during transport. The iCloud Backup keybag contains asymmetric (Curve25519) keys for each Data Protection class, which are used to encrypt the per-file keys. For more information about the contents of the backup keybag and the iCloud Backup keybag, see “Keychain Data Protection” in the Encryption and Data Protection section. The backup set is stored in the user’s iCloud account and consists of a copy of the user’s files, and the iCloud Backup keybag. The iCloud Backup keybag is protected by a random key, which is also stored with the backup set. (The user’s iCloud password isn’t utilized for encryption so that changing the iCloud password won’t invalidate existing backups.) While the user’s Keychain database is backed up to iCloud, it remains protected by a UID-tangled key. This allows the Keychain to be restored only to the same device from which it originated, and it means no one else, including Apple, can read the user’s Keychain items. On restore, the backed-up files, iCloud Backup keybag, and the key for the keybag are retrieved from the user’s iCloud account. The iCloud Backup keybag is decrypted using its key, then the per-file keys in the keybag are used to decrypt the files in the backup set, which are written as new files to the file system, thus re-encrypting them as per their Data Protection class.
- DavideNL 9y ago
  I think that's not true, note this line in the doc you link to: "...and never provides encryption keys to any third parties". The data might be stored encrypted, but Apple seems to have access to the encryption keys. I've read that they need to be able to decrypt data to be able to comply with government requests. I'm not sure if this is still the case now in 2017, but i assume so, until i read otherwise :) https://www.macrumors.com/2016/03/16/apple-to-double-down-icloud-encryption/ https://www.macrumors.com/2016/03/16/apple-to-double-down-ic...
  - Spivak 9y ago
    > but Apple seems to have access to the encryption keys Of course, no one claimed that iCould data was E2E. They also need to decrypt the data in order to serve it to their users.
    - DavideNL 9y ago
      > They also need to decrypt the data in order to serve it to their users. That's the point, they don't (and shouldn't) need to. As Apple itself says in the above linked article: "Apple is working to further harden iCloud security so that even it won't be able to access user information stored on its data servers"
      - crooked-v 9y ago
        Web access means that you've always got one of three things: 1) the company has the encryption key 2) you give the company the encryption key each time you log in and they store it temporarily 3) everything is getting decrypted in the browser locally (probably tremendously infeasible)
        derefr 9y ago
        #3 is how Mega works.
0x27081990 9y ago
>Hopefully sometime soon Apple will also encrypt iCloud contents so data from non-american people (europe in my case) is protected against the US government prying eyes. Also not American myself, but I think legally it should be quite the opposite: NSA and CIA can "legally" spy non-US citizens. It is illegal for them to spy US citizens.
- michaelmior 9y ago
  Why do you think the government should be able to spy on non-US citizens using services from US companies?
  - 0x27081990 9y ago
    Why do you make it personal? I'm just mentioning current US law. The Snowden scandal wasn't because the NSA was spying people, it was because it was spying US citizens without a warrant. The NSA and CIA purpose is to spy the rest of the world in order to "keep Americans safe".
  - sib 9y ago
    "Spying on citizens of other countries" is pretty much the job description of every spy agency in every government around the world (and many add "spying on their own citizens" as well). We may not like it, but it's not exactly a surprising state of affairs.
    - fauigerzigerk 9y ago
      I'm not sure what the job description and constitutional limits of all spy agencies around the world are. What can Swiss authorities look into without a court order for instance? I don't know. But in any event, there is only one country with a significant globally active IT industry and a capable globally active spy agency. That combination is becoming more problematic, which is unsurprising as well.
FussyZeus 9y ago
Don't feel bad, most Americans don't have privacy rights either. :) I've been saying this for awhile, that I trust Apple a lot more since they aren't directly incentivized to sell out their users for advertising. I LOVE iOS as a platform, as a user of both Android and Windows Phone there is simply no comparison, iOS blows both away.
- dghughes 9y ago
  >...since they aren't directly incentivized to sell out their users for advertising... Is that due to Apple being pro consumer privacy or because they have $250 billion in cash? When the cache of cash drops does Apple start adding ads and tracking its users?
  - alanfalcon 9y ago
    It's because they sell their hardware, software and services to consumers, not to ad buyers. It has nothing to do with their cash hoard (Apple is perfectly happy to maximize their profits regardless of cash on hand). It is nice that Tim Cook is pro consumer privacy and that gets baked into the company culture, but Apple is also financially motivated to continue this stance (it's a major differentiating factor and marketing point).
  - s73ver 9y ago
    It's because their business model involves making stuff, and selling that stuff to people for a profit.
arprocter 9y ago
>contrary to Google My Android phone worked out my home and work location without me telling it. That was a bit weird.
- BoorishBears 9y ago
  Every time I switch back to Android tricks like that are actually kind of nifty (but not enough to get me to stay for long). My colleague was really impressed by Google Photo's automatic indexing of pictures being able to find the most obscure objects in pictures
  - Sidnicious 9y ago
    iOS does that too — on-device! — but as a result may not identify as many obscure objects. Seems to handle common ones well, though.
    - BoorishBears 9y ago
      That sums up most of iOS's ML-ish features vs Android, slightly less impressive, but on-device so privacy is improved
- ff10 9y ago
  iOS does that too – after a while of carrying it around.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
msnower 9y ago
I think its a great differentiator for Apple. It'll help them sell products like the HomePod and other products in the privacy sensitive "smart home" space.
NiveaGeForce 9y ago
> I really like Apples pro-privacy stance, in contrary to Google & Microsoft. Location privacy controls and more have been in Windows since Windows Phone 7 and Windows 8. https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10-location-and-privacy https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10-location-and-... https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/13225-turn-off-location-services-windows-10-a.html https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/13225-turn-off-location-...
- DavideNL 9y ago
  That might be true, however... https://privacytoolsio.github.io/privacytools.io/#win10 https://privacytoolsio.github.io/privacytools.io/#win10
- yellow_postit 9y ago
  It is not just about the controls existing but also what the default settings are.

rscott 9y ago

Most of iCloud is encrypted at rest. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

kingnight 9y ago
Interesting omission of iMessage here... since it's not encrypted at rest on their servers.
- andrewksl 9y ago
  I can't tell if you're implying that they store iMessages unencrypted, but iMessage is encrypted end-to-end. Backups of your phone, which may or may not contain message histories, are only encrypted at rest.
- kingnight 9y ago
  ^ I am implying that they are storing iMessages unencrypted. The iMessages on iPhones/iPads are part of the 'backup' for each device and they are not encrypted at rest on the iCloud server.
  - aeontech 9y ago
    You sound very sure of this, what's your source? As far as I've read, the iCloud backups have always been encrypted at rest, and Apple is apparently working on improving it to the point where they do not hold any decryption keys to the backups [0]. That's why, when you set up a new device, up until now it would not have your message history - because the message history can only be decrypted on devices that are already-authorized. If you restore a backup in its entirety, that includes the message log and the encryption key, but if you set up the device as "new", you only get the newly received messages - since it needs your password to decrypt the backup, it had no way to decrypt the message history from backup on the cloud and only sync that down to the new device (which always bothered me in terms of convenience). I think they're working on improving the usability of it in upcoming releases though. [0] https://9to5mac.com/2016/02/25/apple-working-on-stronger-icloud-backup-encryption-and-iphone-security-to-counter-fbi-unlock-requests/ https://9to5mac.com/2016/02/25/apple-working-on-stronger-icl...
    - kingnight 9y ago
      My source, while I wholly acknowledge this is anecdotal and not evidence, is someone in law enforcement tasked with retrieving message logs for investigations. I was pretty skeptical but I've yet found any proof or documentation from Apple's support docs disproving this. I also recall from the San Bernadino case that the FBI/Apple had the ability to get historic message history from the iCloud backup but the FBI pushed for decrypting the device because of the most recent and not backed up messages. As for your scenario -- doesn't that explicitly confirm that the messages are not encrypted safely at rest? You can restore to an entirely new device, using the same backup, and retrieve the messages.
      - aeontech 9y ago
        > someone in law enforcement tasked with retrieving message logs for investigations. Right, but do they retrieve them from iCloud? Without Apple's assistance, and without knowing the user's password? > I was pretty skeptical but I've yet found any proof or documentation from Apple's support docs disproving this. Well, here's the brief overview: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 and here's the iOS security whitepaper: https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf Which includes a section about iCloud security, including the following section: iCloud secures the content by encrypting it when sent over the Internet, storing it in an encrypted format, and using secure tokens for authentication. I am no security expert, but I am pretty sure FBI wouldn't have a huge fight with Apple if they had any way to get to the data directly (and once they figured out they could use a vuln in the old iOS to break into the device, they did indeed drop the fight). > FBI/Apple had the ability to get historic message history from the iCloud backup Right, because they reset the shooter's Apple ID password. Not because the backup was in plaintext. > As for your scenario -- doesn't that explicitly confirm that the messages are not encrypted safely at rest? You can restore to an entirely new device, using the same backup, and retrieve the messages. How does that follow? You still need to supply your password to decrypt the backup before you can restore it. From the same security whitepaper: When files are created in Data Protection classes that aren’t accessible when the device is locked, their per-file keys are encrypted using the class keys from the iCloud Backup keybag. Files are backed up to iCloud in their original, encrypted state. Files in Data Protection class No Protection are encrypted during transport. The iCloud Backup keybag contains asymmetric (Curve25519) keys for each Data Protection class, which are used to encrypt the per-file keys. For more information about the contents of the backup keybag and the iCloud Backup keybag, see “Keychain Data Protection” in the Encryption and Data Protection section. The backup set is stored in the user’s iCloud account and consists of a copy of the user’s files, and the iCloud Backup keybag. The iCloud Backup keybag is protected by a random key, which is also stored with the backup set. (The user’s iCloud password isn’t utilized for encryption so that changing the iCloud password won’t invalidate existing backups.) While the user’s Keychain database is backed up to iCloud, it remains protected by a UID-tangled key. This allows the Keychain to be restored only to the same device from which it originated, and it means no one else, including Apple, can read the user’s Keychain items. On restore, the backed-up files, iCloud Backup keybag, and the key for the keybag are retrieved from the user’s iCloud account. The iCloud Backup keybag is decrypted using its key, then the per-file keys in the keybag are used to decrypt the files in the backup set, which are written as new files to the file system, thus re-encrypting them as per their Data Protection class.
DavideNL 9y ago
I think that's not true, note this line in the doc you link to: "...and never provides encryption keys to any third parties". The data might be stored encrypted, but Apple seems to have access to the encryption keys. I've read that they need to be able to decrypt data to be able to comply with government requests. I'm not sure if this is still the case now in 2017, but i assume so, until i read otherwise :) https://www.macrumors.com/2016/03/16/apple-to-double-down-icloud-encryption/ https://www.macrumors.com/2016/03/16/apple-to-double-down-ic...
- Spivak 9y ago
  > but Apple seems to have access to the encryption keys Of course, no one claimed that iCould data was E2E. They also need to decrypt the data in order to serve it to their users.
  - DavideNL 9y ago
    > They also need to decrypt the data in order to serve it to their users. That's the point, they don't (and shouldn't) need to. As Apple itself says in the above linked article: "Apple is working to further harden iCloud security so that even it won't be able to access user information stored on its data servers"
    - crooked-v 9y ago
      Web access means that you've always got one of three things: 1) the company has the encryption key 2) you give the company the encryption key each time you log in and they store it temporarily 3) everything is getting decrypted in the browser locally (probably tremendously infeasible)
      - derefr 9y ago
        #3 is how Mega works.

0x27081990 9y ago

>Hopefully sometime soon Apple will also encrypt iCloud contents so data from non-american people (europe in my case) is protected against the US government prying eyes. Also not American myself, but I think legally it should be quite the opposite: NSA and CIA can "legally" spy non-US citizens. It is illegal for them to spy US citizens.

michaelmior 9y ago
Why do you think the government should be able to spy on non-US citizens using services from US companies?
- 0x27081990 9y ago
  Why do you make it personal? I'm just mentioning current US law. The Snowden scandal wasn't because the NSA was spying people, it was because it was spying US citizens without a warrant. The NSA and CIA purpose is to spy the rest of the world in order to "keep Americans safe".
- sib 9y ago
  "Spying on citizens of other countries" is pretty much the job description of every spy agency in every government around the world (and many add "spying on their own citizens" as well). We may not like it, but it's not exactly a surprising state of affairs.
  - fauigerzigerk 9y ago
    I'm not sure what the job description and constitutional limits of all spy agencies around the world are. What can Swiss authorities look into without a court order for instance? I don't know. But in any event, there is only one country with a significant globally active IT industry and a capable globally active spy agency. That combination is becoming more problematic, which is unsurprising as well.

FussyZeus 9y ago

Don't feel bad, most Americans don't have privacy rights either. :) I've been saying this for awhile, that I trust Apple a lot more since they aren't directly incentivized to sell out their users for advertising. I LOVE iOS as a platform, as a user of both Android and Windows Phone there is simply no comparison, iOS blows both away.

dghughes 9y ago
>...since they aren't directly incentivized to sell out their users for advertising... Is that due to Apple being pro consumer privacy or because they have $250 billion in cash? When the cache of cash drops does Apple start adding ads and tracking its users?
- alanfalcon 9y ago
  It's because they sell their hardware, software and services to consumers, not to ad buyers. It has nothing to do with their cash hoard (Apple is perfectly happy to maximize their profits regardless of cash on hand). It is nice that Tim Cook is pro consumer privacy and that gets baked into the company culture, but Apple is also financially motivated to continue this stance (it's a major differentiating factor and marketing point).
- s73ver 9y ago
  It's because their business model involves making stuff, and selling that stuff to people for a profit.

arprocter 9y ago

>contrary to Google My Android phone worked out my home and work location without me telling it. That was a bit weird.

BoorishBears 9y ago
Every time I switch back to Android tricks like that are actually kind of nifty (but not enough to get me to stay for long). My colleague was really impressed by Google Photo's automatic indexing of pictures being able to find the most obscure objects in pictures
- Sidnicious 9y ago
  iOS does that too — on-device! — but as a result may not identify as many obscure objects. Seems to handle common ones well, though.
  - BoorishBears 9y ago
    That sums up most of iOS's ML-ish features vs Android, slightly less impressive, but on-device so privacy is improved
ff10 9y ago
iOS does that too – after a while of carrying it around.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

msnower 9y ago

I think its a great differentiator for Apple. It'll help them sell products like the HomePod and other products in the privacy sensitive "smart home" space.

NiveaGeForce 9y ago

> I really like Apples pro-privacy stance, in contrary to Google & Microsoft. Location privacy controls and more have been in Windows since Windows Phone 7 and Windows 8. https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10-location-and-privacy https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10-location-and-... https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/13225-turn-off-location-services-windows-10-a.html https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/13225-turn-off-location-...

DavideNL 9y ago
That might be true, however... https://privacytoolsio.github.io/privacytools.io/#win10 https://privacytoolsio.github.io/privacytools.io/#win10
yellow_postit 9y ago
It is not just about the controls existing but also what the default settings are.