5 ms·

I'm amazed how China has now become the leader of the green movement. Times change.

ygaf 9y ago
It took them enough self-inflicted pain to come around.
marcoperaza 9y ago
Don't let yourself be fooled. China is not being high-minded or altruistic. The Paris Accord was economically beneficial to the Chinese because it explicitly allowed them to increase emissions, to continue their high growth rate and "catch up" to Western economies. Of course they want to tie the hands of their major economic competitors. And now they also see an opportunity to rehabilitate their public image in the minds of Western liberals, all while they keep throwing political dissidents in jail and oppressing religious minorities. And burning more dirty coal anyway too. I'm not making an argument for or against the Paris Accord here--it's reasonable to argue that it's only fair to allow developing countries more flexibility under it. But please don't let yourself fall for Chinese propaganda that tries to paint them as altruistic or taking a moral high ground, or most absurdly, as the new "leaders" of the green movement.
- rollinDyno 9y ago
  OP is impressed by the shift in public perception, not in the causes itself. If America was ever the leader of the green movement, it also had its own sinister roots.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 9y ago
    Are you sure about that? I didn't read it at all like that. But it's easy for China to cheer on the Paris Accord, at least for now. Even though they already produce more emissions per capita than the EU average, they get to increase their emissions without a set limit, while competing European countries axe their emissions in half – and Europe pays China for all this while industry flees into Asia of the ever increasing costs of operation. To me it doesn't sound like a good deal at all with us being in recession for most part of the last decade.
- woodandsteel 9y ago
  Ah, yes, Trump's crazy theory that global warming was invented by the Chinese to cripple the US economy. If that was the case, China would be charging ahead with fossil fuels and doing nothing with renewables. But instead it is doing exactly the opposite, canceling hundreds of coal-fired power plants, and installing solar and wind energy at a truly amazing rate. And building up huge industries that will make it hundreds of billions of dollars.
  - marcoperaza 9y ago
    >Ah, yes, Trump's crazy theory that global warming was invented by the Chinese to cripple the US economy. I'd really rather that you didn't put words in my mouth. And the actual risk and necessary responses to climate change are completely orthogonal to the point I was making. Here's a more critical analysis of China's supposed "green leap forward": https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-green-leap-forward-in-china-what-a-load-of-biomass-1486081133 https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-green-leap-forward-in-china-w...
    - woodandsteel 9y ago
      >I'd really rather that you didn't put words in my mouth. But you said: "Of course they want to tie the hands of their major economic competitors." How is that any different than Trump's crackpot theory that global climate change was invented by the Chinese to cripple the US economy? And you don't reject the idea climate change is a hoax, you try to duck the issue by saying it is orthogonal. In an case, the question today is not why China signed the treaty back then, but it is doing now. As I explained, it is charging ahead with renewables. They are doing this because they are worried about global climate change doing damage to their own country, because coal is causing terrible air pollution problems, and because they see an opportunity to establish a major global industry. Your idea that they are doing it only to divert attention from their human rights abuses is completely cracked. Oh, and if you are going to post a link supporting your position, it really ought to be one that is not hidden behind a paywall.
      - marcoperaza 9y ago
pyroinferno 9y ago
I'm guessing you haven't read the Paris accord, China is still considered a developing country so they not only get to increase carbon emissions, but they get paid by the developed world to do it. Why wouldn't they sign the Paris Accord when they get free money for doing it?
cryptonector 9y ago
They are the leader of it _abroad_ (i.e., for show). At home they pollute like crazy.

ygaf 9y ago

It took them enough self-inflicted pain to come around.

Don't let yourself be fooled. China is not being high-minded or altruistic. The Paris Accord was economically beneficial to the Chinese because it explicitly allowed them to increase emissions, to continue their high growth rate and "catch up" to Western economies. Of course they want to tie the hands of their major economic competitors. And now they also see an opportunity to rehabilitate their public image in the minds of Western liberals, all while they keep throwing political dissidents in jail and oppressing religious minorities. And burning more dirty coal anyway too. I'm not making an argument for or against the Paris Accord here--it's reasonable to argue that it's only fair to allow developing countries more flexibility under it. But please don't let yourself fall for Chinese propaganda that tries to paint them as altruistic or taking a moral high ground, or most absurdly, as the new "leaders" of the green movement.

rollinDyno 9y ago
OP is impressed by the shift in public perception, not in the causes itself. If America was ever the leader of the green movement, it also had its own sinister roots.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 9y ago
  Are you sure about that? I didn't read it at all like that. But it's easy for China to cheer on the Paris Accord, at least for now. Even though they already produce more emissions per capita than the EU average, they get to increase their emissions without a set limit, while competing European countries axe their emissions in half – and Europe pays China for all this while industry flees into Asia of the ever increasing costs of operation. To me it doesn't sound like a good deal at all with us being in recession for most part of the last decade.
woodandsteel 9y ago
Ah, yes, Trump's crazy theory that global warming was invented by the Chinese to cripple the US economy. If that was the case, China would be charging ahead with fossil fuels and doing nothing with renewables. But instead it is doing exactly the opposite, canceling hundreds of coal-fired power plants, and installing solar and wind energy at a truly amazing rate. And building up huge industries that will make it hundreds of billions of dollars.
- marcoperaza 9y ago
  >Ah, yes, Trump's crazy theory that global warming was invented by the Chinese to cripple the US economy. I'd really rather that you didn't put words in my mouth. And the actual risk and necessary responses to climate change are completely orthogonal to the point I was making. Here's a more critical analysis of China's supposed "green leap forward": https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-green-leap-forward-in-china-what-a-load-of-biomass-1486081133 https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-green-leap-forward-in-china-w...
  - woodandsteel 9y ago
    >I'd really rather that you didn't put words in my mouth. But you said: "Of course they want to tie the hands of their major economic competitors." How is that any different than Trump's crackpot theory that global climate change was invented by the Chinese to cripple the US economy? And you don't reject the idea climate change is a hoax, you try to duck the issue by saying it is orthogonal. In an case, the question today is not why China signed the treaty back then, but it is doing now. As I explained, it is charging ahead with renewables. They are doing this because they are worried about global climate change doing damage to their own country, because coal is causing terrible air pollution problems, and because they see an opportunity to establish a major global industry. Your idea that they are doing it only to divert attention from their human rights abuses is completely cracked. Oh, and if you are going to post a link supporting your position, it really ought to be one that is not hidden behind a paywall.
    - marcoperaza 9y ago

pyroinferno 9y ago

I'm guessing you haven't read the Paris accord, China is still considered a developing country so they not only get to increase carbon emissions, but they get paid by the developed world to do it. Why wouldn't they sign the Paris Accord when they get free money for doing it?

cryptonector 9y ago

They are the leader of it _abroad_ (i.e., for show). At home they pollute like crazy.