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I generally agree with what he is saying, but the web has moved beyond the point where its reasonable to expect websites to have JS fallbacks. It is just too pr

I generally agree with what he is saying, but the web has moved beyond the point where its reasonable to expect websites to have JS fallbacks. It is just too prominent now a days. I've always been a JS hater, though I have to code it frequently.. However, with that said I find the arguments against the language becoming more and more obsolete as the years go on.

sametmax 9y ago
It's not becoming obsolete. Because of legacy code, docs and the fact the old behavior is still valid JS, beginners are still completely lost because of this bad design that never been fixed, only compensated by adding things. Now add the fact that: - the ecosystem is exploding like a holy grenade, only not as funny - having to learn what "rebinding this in the closure's callback" is still core to the path to the language understanding. - you have so many ways to do things, especially asynchronously, and yet no simple way to do simple stuff like removing an item from an array - pre-processors are used everywhere and you have so many of them - safari is becoming the new IE6 We are still very much paying the price of the terrible language that is Javascript.
kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
It's not unreasonable to expect hyperlinks or images to work without JS. Fancier stuff sure, but basic navigation through a content only site should be functional without it. This is what HTML does and you have to be profoundly lazy to screw that up.
- scaryclam 9y ago
  This is really the problem I think. It's not as much fun to create something that functions properly. The best FE devs make sure that they create functioning web pages first. Then they go ahead and make them better with some JS. Only the least competent/laziest developers create JS only sites (this is discounting things like JS games etc where there's no text or images, or pretty much anything that can be done in HTML). I find it frustrating when these devs try to paint the web as something more advanced, or somehow different (seriously, it's not a special snowflake) in order to try to validate their preferred way of working. It's unprofessional to their employers, it's a disservice to themselves and it's a big "screw you!" to their users.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Hence why we now have the movement of pure HTML 5 / CSS 3 among those best FE devs.
- douche 9y ago
  My favorite pet peeve is JS links, that aren't actually <a> links, but spans or divs with click handlers, so there's no way to right-click->open in new tab or ctrl-click->open in new tab. It's like intentionally doing something that is harder, and works shittier; I don't get it.
  - dahauns 9y ago
    Or my favorite, <a href="javascript:void(0)"...
  - syrrim 9y ago
    My favourite pet peeve is the lyrics wikia, which has some css embedded in a <noscript> tag that blocks out the lyrics and replaces it with a "sorry! This site requires javascript" message.
pmlnr 9y ago
> the web has moved beyond the point where its reasonable to expect websites to have JS fallbacks For people with powerful smartphones and reliable internet, this may be true. Let me point you to: https://danluu.com/web-bloat/ https://danluu.com/web-bloat/ (discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13601451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13601451 )
JohnStrange 9y ago
I generally don't use websites that require JS. But I'm probably in a minority.
pjmlp 9y ago
Not for me, I only use web apps when there are no native alternatives, even though I also do web dev when customers require me to do so. I take this to extreme on mobile apps, only native ones get into my devices. If it looks like a web widget after being installed, it gets the boot shortly afterwards.
scaryclam 9y ago
No, it hasn't really. I like JS, but I think the attitude that it's a requirement now really needs to go away. I'm hoping it will when the current generation of more junior FE devs start to grow up and realise their work is about the users and their clients, not about what they want to do. The article shows quite nicely that it's completely possible to create great websites without the requirement for JS to work well. Make it an enhancement and your users will love you for it. Make your users love you, and your employer/client will love you as well.
edent 9y ago
> I generally agree with what he is saying "I’m a 30-something woman living in Berlin, Germany (the famous one, with the wall and stuff)." https://sonniesedge.co.uk/about/ https://sonniesedge.co.uk/about/
- Anthony-G 9y ago
  The page is also titled About Her (link text is the same).
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

sametmax 9y ago

It's not becoming obsolete. Because of legacy code, docs and the fact the old behavior is still valid JS, beginners are still completely lost because of this bad design that never been fixed, only compensated by adding things. Now add the fact that: - the ecosystem is exploding like a holy grenade, only not as funny - having to learn what "rebinding this in the closure's callback" is still core to the path to the language understanding. - you have so many ways to do things, especially asynchronously, and yet no simple way to do simple stuff like removing an item from an array - pre-processors are used everywhere and you have so many of them - safari is becoming the new IE6 We are still very much paying the price of the terrible language that is Javascript.

kevin_thibedeau 9y ago

It's not unreasonable to expect hyperlinks or images to work without JS. Fancier stuff sure, but basic navigation through a content only site should be functional without it. This is what HTML does and you have to be profoundly lazy to screw that up.

scaryclam 9y ago
This is really the problem I think. It's not as much fun to create something that functions properly. The best FE devs make sure that they create functioning web pages first. Then they go ahead and make them better with some JS. Only the least competent/laziest developers create JS only sites (this is discounting things like JS games etc where there's no text or images, or pretty much anything that can be done in HTML). I find it frustrating when these devs try to paint the web as something more advanced, or somehow different (seriously, it's not a special snowflake) in order to try to validate their preferred way of working. It's unprofessional to their employers, it's a disservice to themselves and it's a big "screw you!" to their users.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Hence why we now have the movement of pure HTML 5 / CSS 3 among those best FE devs.
douche 9y ago
My favorite pet peeve is JS links, that aren't actually <a> links, but spans or divs with click handlers, so there's no way to right-click->open in new tab or ctrl-click->open in new tab. It's like intentionally doing something that is harder, and works shittier; I don't get it.
- dahauns 9y ago
  Or my favorite, <a href="javascript:void(0)"...
- syrrim 9y ago
  My favourite pet peeve is the lyrics wikia, which has some css embedded in a <noscript> tag that blocks out the lyrics and replaces it with a "sorry! This site requires javascript" message.

pmlnr 9y ago

> the web has moved beyond the point where its reasonable to expect websites to have JS fallbacks For people with powerful smartphones and reliable internet, this may be true. Let me point you to: https://danluu.com/web-bloat/ https://danluu.com/web-bloat/ (discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13601451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13601451 )

JohnStrange 9y ago

I generally don't use websites that require JS. But I'm probably in a minority.

pjmlp 9y ago

Not for me, I only use web apps when there are no native alternatives, even though I also do web dev when customers require me to do so. I take this to extreme on mobile apps, only native ones get into my devices. If it looks like a web widget after being installed, it gets the boot shortly afterwards.

scaryclam 9y ago

No, it hasn't really. I like JS, but I think the attitude that it's a requirement now really needs to go away. I'm hoping it will when the current generation of more junior FE devs start to grow up and realise their work is about the users and their clients, not about what they want to do. The article shows quite nicely that it's completely possible to create great websites without the requirement for JS to work well. Make it an enhancement and your users will love you for it. Make your users love you, and your employer/client will love you as well.

edent 9y ago

> I generally agree with what he is saying "I’m a 30-something woman living in Berlin, Germany (the famous one, with the wall and stuff)." https://sonniesedge.co.uk/about/ https://sonniesedge.co.uk/about/

Anthony-G 9y ago
The page is also titled About Her (link text is the same).

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]