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Edit: I watched the video. The moderator goes on and on and the "let her speak please" sounds very polite. This is a painfully frustrating reminder that women
by jasonshen 9y ago
Edit: I watched the video. The moderator goes on and on and the "let her speak please" sounds very polite.
This is a painfully frustrating reminder that women get talked over by men. It's one thing to have one panelist talk over another, but to have the moderator, who is explicitly in charge of facilitating a panel discussion, be the one to drown out a panelist is just unacceptable. Yes, "not all men" do this, but the fact that this continues to happen in such visible and public settings, where presumably people are on "their best behavior", would suggest that it happens even more in more private situations. Research has shown that groups where speaking is more distributed are more successful at solving problems, and explicitly teams with more women are more successful: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/the-secret-to-smart-groups-isnt-smart-people/384625/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/the-sec...
I will take this story as another reminder to be aware of situations where I might be dominating a conversation, and I hope you will too.
- kirRoyale 9y agoYou know men get talked over by women too?
- lawik 9y agoDo you believe that it is as common? Do you believe that the person you are replying to doesn't believe that it ever happens? Does excluding a full disclaimer invalidate his thoughts about trying not to talk over women or dominating conversations? I don't believe it is always necessary to counter-exemplify what you experience as a general trend.
- wayn3 9y agowatch the recode lady interview any one of her favourite nerds.
- oneoff_147 9y agoMy personal experience, especially through family and to a lesser extent through other acquaintances, is of women dominating conversations and talking over men. I (a man) can't tell you how many times I've had a woman ask me a question and then talk over my answer, or repeatedly interrupt me when I try to participate in a conversation. And I see the same thing happening to other men I know. The men just kind of give up and fade into the background as they realize they are simply not going to be allowed to speak. Now I'm perfectly willing to believe that other people find the opposite experience more common. But I have to admit my initial reaction to statements like "this is a painfully frustrating reminder that women get talked over by men" is not positive, and I really do wish the conversation could be about people dominating conversations rather than men dominating conversations.
- wruza 9y ago>people dominating conversations rather than men dominating conversations You're probably going to get "all lives matter"-alike reaction on this.
- lawik 9y agoAnd what you are writing here is a nuanced comment about differing experiences. Perfectly reasonable. I'll grant that I've seen both in casual social circumstances. But in this kind of situation, fairly serious and focused around competence/status, I'd say I see women get less space.
- azernik 9y agoI would ask that you question your own perception: http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/item/escidoc:68785:7/component/escidoc:506904/Cutler_1990_Speaker+sex.pdf http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/item/escidoc:68785:7/compon...
- Sacho 9y agoThis is an interesting study but it has at least one incredulous assumption: > Extraordinarily, we do not know how listeners actually assess how much is spoken. Common sense tells us that someone who drawls a sentence slowly is not considered to have said more than another person who gabbles the same sentence twice in less time than the first person took to say it once. That is, we normally make allowance for speaking rate in judging who says most; amount of linguistic material produced is what really counts. They do not analyze this issue at all in their paper and I don't see how they can just handwave it away with "common sense tells us". My common sense understanding is that our assessment of speech vs talking speed would be some kind of curve, with the extreme ends ending up with underestimation(spoke too fast, could not remember all the words said; spoke too slow, lost track of conversation) and the rest trending as slower -> overestimated and faster -> underestimated. But we both only have our "common sense" to put forward for this conjecture. Either way, it would have helped if they measured the talking speed of the speakers, so we could at least see if there was any statistical difference.
- camelite 9y ago
- watwut 9y agoWell, in this instance, if you watch the video, males were treated differently. Yes, hypothetically, if women acted the same (or interrupted only males), she would be as bad as he was. Yes, hypothetically, if he treated males and females the same, he would be just equal opportunity asshole. Nevertheless, in this specific case, the only women was treated differently.
- walterstucco 9y ago> in this instance, if you watch the video, males were treated differently. and in other instances women were treated differently. so what? what's the point? do you wanna say that this instance represent the way women are generally treated when they talk?
- azernik 9y agoStudies generally say "yes" - this is the way women are generally treated when they talk.
- Sacho 9y agoCan you please share such a study?
- odonnellryan 9y agoThere are a million billion! https://hbr.org/2017/04/female-supreme-court-justices-are-interrupted-more-by-male-justices-and-advocates https://hbr.org/2017/04/female-supreme-court-justices-are-in... All different settings.
- walterstucco 9y agostudies in US generally say yes We all know US men are generally terrible...
- haburka 9y agoThis is pretty much a textbook troll comment right here.
- danso 9y agoJournalists definitely like to hear themselves talk, even when formulating questions while moderating a discussion. But if he, as a relative layperson in science, felt that comfortable interrupting Dr. Hubeny and riffing off of her area of expertise, imagine what he's like in a topic in which he doesn't think himself a relative amateur.
- cynicalbastard 9y ago> Journalists definitely like to hear themselves talk, even when formulating questions while moderating a discussion. slightly off topic, but with the rise of ubiquitous audio/video and the interview/discussion/panel format, it is infuriating how many hosts just blatantly speak over their guests, over and over and over. it's one of the biggest tells between a professional interviewer and a rank amateur. i can barely make it through my weekly playlist without cringing at half the dialogue. i completely stopped listening to charlie rose because of this. it's absolutely atrocious. it's not helpful, and makes me anxious when i'm trying to unwind. some guests simply continue speaking, and the entire discussion devolves into little more than a god damn shouting match. sexism or not, i hope this public assassination at least makes one loudmouth blowhard reconsider his default modus operandi. just let your guests speak! for fuck's sake, it's not that hard.
- jacobolus 9y agoCharlie Rose has been an absolutely abysmal interviewer his whole career, which is a tragedy considering how good they are at booking great guests. He asks long leading questions, proceeds to answer them himself, and then tacks on an “isn’t that right?” at the end. When the guest inevitably says “that’s not how I think of it, Charlie, let me explain ...”, he then interrupts and repeats his original claim again. Ugh, drives me crazy. He also kisses up like mad to a few people (Tom Friedman? Yuck.) while stomping all over experts he doesn’t agree with, often because he doesn’t understand their point. My favorite was when at some point maybe 15 years ago he was interviewing I think Bill Joy, and asked one of his long multi-sentence leading questions. To which the response was ... pause ... “well, duh.” * * * Thankfully Terry Gross single-handedly makes up for all the bad interviewers in the world.
- walterstucco 9y ago> This is a painfully frustrating reminder that women get talked over by men men get talked over as well some people just talk over other people nothing new
- d3ad1ysp0rk 9y agoWhat an absolutely baseless argument.
- walterstucco 9y agokinda looks like you never talked in public with other people…
- Kluny 9y agoThere were four men on the stage who weren't talked over.
- andrepd 9y agoMaybe you would care to watch the video more closely. You will find the moderator has the same attitude with every member of the panel.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- walterstucco 9y agoI guess you're not a man (or you don't define yourself as such) I've been talked over by literally everybody, including my dogs and cats
- dang 9y agoYou've been posting unsubstantive "so what?" dismissals, which is trollish when it comes to a divisive topic. Worse, you've crossed into personal attack. That's a bannable offense on HN, so please don't do it again.
- andrepd 9y agoIf you watch the rest of the video you will find the moderator imposes himself and cuts off the panellists and talks over them multiple times, seemingly regardless of gender. This makes me strongly inclined to believe that this incident had nothing to do with sexism, but rather with the annoyingly dominant and imposing personality of the moderator. Maybe you think otherwise. Why would you say this incident is a "painfully frustrating reminder that women get talked over by men"? Surely you can't construe this incident to mean that when all panellists alike suffered the same treatment? What's your take?
- jshelly 9y agoLink to video? EDIT: Found it at the bottom...
- k__ 9y agoWhere?
- funnyfacts365 9y agoTFA
- suby 9y agoI read the facebook post and did not see a video link anywhere. I came to the comments to find the video. You could have actually been helpful and linked to the video. For anyone interested, the link is here. http://www.worldsciencefestival.com/programs/big-universe-bigger-questions/ http://www.worldsciencefestival.com/programs/big-universe-bi... edit: The moment happens at roughly 1 hour 7 minutes in.
- Cyphase 9y agoIt's at 1:07:41 in the video linked in the parent[1], but start at 1:03:50 to get the full context (short of watching the whole video). Also, in case someone does a Ctrl+F for "timestamp", there you go. [1] http://www.worldsciencefestival.com/programs/big-universe-bigger-questions/ http://www.worldsciencefestival.com/programs/big-universe-bi...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- logfromblammo 9y agoI get talked over all the time. I usually chalk it up to being an American living in America, but with a more Scandinavian/Minnesotan conversational style. That is, I will pause while speaking, spooling my next thought out to the phonological loop, to review and filter it, before streaming it out through the voice apparatus, but then some jackass will use that break to assume conversational priority when I haven't yielded it yet. So when I resume speaking, they are already talking. It is practically impossible for me to engage in a conversation with such a person constantly ruining it for me, so I usually just keep my thoughts to myself and regret even showing up for the party. Even my spouse does this in a 1-on-1 conversation. And then I am the one accused of interrupting, as though it is acceptable to jump in between two sentences of a paragraph. It's like I need that stupid conch shell from Lord of the Flies in order to say everything that I want to say. And I get so irritated when people spew out a stream of content-free babble, for the sole purpose of maintaining priority, to the point where I forget what I have been wanting to say for the last 5 minutes. It might be a sexist thing, but I think it's more likely that the people with the least latency between brain and larynx--and therefore the fewest speech filters--are the ones that never learned that conversational priority isn't just about refraining from talking while sound is still coming out of someone else's mouth. And, of course, there are also the people who simply decide they are the most important person in a conversation and act like they're the lead actor giving a monologue, and everyone else is the chorus. So please, have a care as to whether a silence in the conversation is a pause or a yield. You may be interrupting someone giving due consideration to what they will say next.
- natosaichek 9y agoI cannot agree more. Thread done. Thank you for expressing yourself with such great metaphor.
- gknoy 9y agoI realize this sounds silly, but maybe having a conch, or similar talisman of "I'm not done yet, please listen" might be handy. I find myself interrupting my children a lot more than I like (and while it often feels like it's because they're interrupting me as well, I'm certain that's usually not true). Having a stuffed animal or similar "conch" talisman might help us actually listen, because each of us could point out who has the conch.
- ryanmarsh 9y agoPeople get talked over by people. I see this all the time and it's generally sexless. As a consultant I've helped at least 100 teams have crucial conversations across tens of businesses. I don't get the constant refrain that this is a male vs. female thing.
- devnonymous 9y agoReading the comments here I am surprised at all the people who are claiming that people get talked over by other people all the time and it has nothing to do with sex. I mean, yeah there's no denying that there exist pushy jerks who are jerks to everyone but guess what? those kinds are more likely to be even greater jerks with women. So either this guy was a regular jerk talking over her because she was a woman or being that special kind of jerk who normally talks over some men but talks over most women. Why is there an difference of opinion about this? Does anyone really think there is a breed of jerks who talk over some/most men but will never do that/will do less of that to a woman?
- complexmango 9y agoThat precludes the breed of jerks who will talk over anybody that will tolerate it. What makes you think there aren't women who also like to claim the center of attention, regardless of other men OR women around them? I don't understand this need to idolize one sex over the other, when the issue is that some people (like this moderator) are just more tone deaf or inconsiderate than others. Equality between sexes implies treating everyone as a human rather than assuming that this moderator is a stand-in for men in general.
- devnonymous 9y ago> That precludes the breed of jerks who will talk over anybody that will tolerate it So are you claiming that those sort of jerks are not going to be extra nasty to women that will tolerate it? That they are going to be equally nasty to people of both sexes? If that's what you're claiming, I'll humbly disagree but won't engage any further. > What makes you think there aren't women who also like to claim the center of attention, regardless of other men OR women around them? I never claimed that there aren't such women. Indeed there exist women who behave worse with other women than they do with men. But then what's your point? Women being sexist doesn't make it okay for men to continue to be so now, does it?
- vm 9y agoThis is a real problem in the business and tech communities. I have seen few people "at the top" acknowledge it. Leaders, make an effort to listen and clear the air for others to speak up. Don't beat them up if they don't articulate brilliantly right away -- it takes practice. You'll be surprised at the rate of improvement. For individuals, I use this trick when people cut me off AND it's unjustified: saying "hang on, let me finish" and then driving my point aggressively. It has mostly worked though I am male.
- lphnull 9y agoAs a tiny, girly looking feminine man who crossdresses half the time, I have to say that everybody- male or female- is at risk for being "talked over" and not given a fair chance. That's just how the world works. You can be upset about it and say that people were unfair, or you can make yourself a better person by learning from others mistakes. The world would be a better place if people put less energy into being upset, and more energy into mutual empathy between sexes.
- Godel_unicode 9y agoAs a large, athletic, deeply voiced man I agree with your sentiment.
- doall 9y agoWatched the related part of the video. I don't know if it was because of sexism, but it was clearly rude and annoying. The excited native, faster and louder speaking moderator taking over a kind, non-native, slower and smaller speaker. Since as a non-native male, I have seen this kind of taking over whatever the gender is and this might happen to any person which has those characteristics.