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The human capacity for desire is infinite. We will never stop learning to do more with less (economizing = economy). Do you also believe everything that will e

by jp555 9y ago

The human capacity for desire is infinite. We will never stop learning to do more with less (economizing = economy). Do you also believe everything that will ever be invented has already been invented? Less resource allocation for X means more resources to invent Y.

FussyZeus 9y ago
Of course not. I'm saying that once we have a machine that can build any material using nothing but energy (the Star Trek replicator, basically) and once we have sufficient access to for lack of a better word, infinite energy, then material goods no longer have value. Capitalism is built on the idea of scarcity, once scarcity is obsolete, I see no reason why Capitalism would not also be obsolete. Example: Platinum is a valuable metal because the supply is limited and the process to acquire more is difficult, costly, and dangerous. If for example you invented a machine that could turn, I don't know, wrought iron into platinum, then the value of platinum decreases. So, once you have this deus ex machina that can create matter from energy, anywhere, at any time at very little cost, then any and all material goods that were once scarce and therefore valuable now are worth whatever the energy cost is to get them made by the replicator and no more.
- jp555 9y ago
  Many things have gone from extremely costly to almost free (Aluminum used to cost more than gold, now we wrap food in it), but that just freed up those resources to be allocated to something else where there is scarcity. This is what the force of Capitalism & free enterprise does. Fame is an example of another scarce resource that will not diminish even with magic energy and magic alchemy. In fact, it would only become more valuable as there is a lot more resources freed up to allocate to it. There's always going to be scarcity. You can't make more time. Unless you think we'll all have time machines as well?
  - FussyZeus 9y ago
    Well unless you plan to have a Startup that sells Time, the scarcity of time is rather irrelevant to Capitalism, no? It has to be something a business can solve for you. Time Travel seems unlikely but treatments to extend the life of a human being so they have more time? Absolutely within the realm of possibilities, but where the first round of those will likely cost thousands if not hundreds of thousands and be newsworthy, centuries from now when those treatments are commonplace, they'll be getting cheaper and cheaper too just like aluminum did. And again you're not addressing my raw point: that scarcity is the basis of Capitalistic goods and businesses, and that once scarcity is made obsolete by the unstoppable march of technology, once material goods, everything from toilet paper all the way up to time-defying treatments comes out of our Replicator, then what is left to be scarce? The only way at such a time to maintain scarcity and therefore capitalism is to impose it artificially, and if you knowingly withhold things that could be made free, realistically and practically, for everyone simply to continue making money, I'm sorry but that is the height of evil.
- thephyber 9y ago
  From another FussyZeus comment: > Well unless you plan to have a Startup that sells Time, the scarcity of time is rather irrelevant to Capitalism, no? WHOA, NOW. Time is a zero-sum game. The scarcity of time is not even close to "irrelevant to Capitalism". Economists compare productivity gains as the ability to produce more widgets in the same amount of time. The wealthy generally value their time much higher than the poor, so there is a spectrum. Are you saying that there's no value added in a company saving you time? * USPS delivering mail to your house rather than a PO Box. * Amazon/etailer website ordering as opposed to brick and mortar * Doordash, Google Shopping Express, InstaCart, etc * FedEx/UPS delivering to your door, rather than * Pre-packaged meals. * A taxi/limo/Uber driver. * A helicopter to avoid traffic. * A dishwasher / clothes washer * Electrical hand-tools to make construction faster * A secretary / admin assistant * Amazon MechTurk * AAA membership as opposed to standing in line at the California DMV * A cousin of mine makes a living navigating local governments to gain building permits for her customers Tristan Harris even argues that there is an "attention economy". I worked at a tiny social media website in 2008+, which was effectively destroyed by the rise of Facebook. Hell, we even saw that as our users grew up and went to college, we lost their attention. The entire marketing industry is about competing for the attention of users, which is also a zero-sum game.
  - FussyZeus 9y ago
    > WHOA, NOW. Time is a zero-sum game. The scarcity of time is not even close to "irrelevant to Capitalism". Economists compare productivity gains as the ability to produce more widgets in the same amount of time. Once widgets materialize in a box and can be moved immediately via non-human means to whomever needs them, or more likely, simply be removed from the box by the human who wanted the widget, the friction becomes 0. It's no longer about who can get the widget made faster unless you talk about the efficiency of the replicator itself, and that will likely approach a certain baseline point as well. The thing is the further along you go on this curve, the faster all of these things will work to improve each other. Why have a prepackaged meal when you could have the exact molecular composition of a fantastic soufflé made by a five star chef in Paris, instantly, for the cost of running your replicator for 10 seconds? Why take a helicopter to avoid traffic when automated streets have made the few commutes that remain extremely fast? Who cares about shipping you things when the product you bought materializes next to your oven? You're talking incremental improvements in the next 10 years. That's not going to do anything I've discussed. I'm talking the theoretical and in my mind, inevitable conclusion to capitalism: that all goods and services are worthless; not because we don't need them, but because they don't cost us anything.

by jp555 9y ago

FussyZeus 9y ago

Of course not. I'm saying that once we have a machine that can build any material using nothing but energy (the Star Trek replicator, basically) and once we have sufficient access to for lack of a better word, infinite energy, then material goods no longer have value. Capitalism is built on the idea of scarcity, once scarcity is obsolete, I see no reason why Capitalism would not also be obsolete. Example: Platinum is a valuable metal because the supply is limited and the process to acquire more is difficult, costly, and dangerous. If for example you invented a machine that could turn, I don't know, wrought iron into platinum, then the value of platinum decreases. So, once you have this deus ex machina that can create matter from energy, anywhere, at any time at very little cost, then any and all material goods that were once scarce and therefore valuable now are worth whatever the energy cost is to get them made by the replicator and no more.

jp555 9y ago
Many things have gone from extremely costly to almost free (Aluminum used to cost more than gold, now we wrap food in it), but that just freed up those resources to be allocated to something else where there is scarcity. This is what the force of Capitalism & free enterprise does. Fame is an example of another scarce resource that will not diminish even with magic energy and magic alchemy. In fact, it would only become more valuable as there is a lot more resources freed up to allocate to it. There's always going to be scarcity. You can't make more time. Unless you think we'll all have time machines as well?
- FussyZeus 9y ago
  Well unless you plan to have a Startup that sells Time, the scarcity of time is rather irrelevant to Capitalism, no? It has to be something a business can solve for you. Time Travel seems unlikely but treatments to extend the life of a human being so they have more time? Absolutely within the realm of possibilities, but where the first round of those will likely cost thousands if not hundreds of thousands and be newsworthy, centuries from now when those treatments are commonplace, they'll be getting cheaper and cheaper too just like aluminum did. And again you're not addressing my raw point: that scarcity is the basis of Capitalistic goods and businesses, and that once scarcity is made obsolete by the unstoppable march of technology, once material goods, everything from toilet paper all the way up to time-defying treatments comes out of our Replicator, then what is left to be scarce? The only way at such a time to maintain scarcity and therefore capitalism is to impose it artificially, and if you knowingly withhold things that could be made free, realistically and practically, for everyone simply to continue making money, I'm sorry but that is the height of evil.
thephyber 9y ago
From another FussyZeus comment: > Well unless you plan to have a Startup that sells Time, the scarcity of time is rather irrelevant to Capitalism, no? WHOA, NOW. Time is a zero-sum game. The scarcity of time is not even close to "irrelevant to Capitalism". Economists compare productivity gains as the ability to produce more widgets in the same amount of time. The wealthy generally value their time much higher than the poor, so there is a spectrum. Are you saying that there's no value added in a company saving you time? * USPS delivering mail to your house rather than a PO Box. * Amazon/etailer website ordering as opposed to brick and mortar * Doordash, Google Shopping Express, InstaCart, etc * FedEx/UPS delivering to your door, rather than * Pre-packaged meals. * A taxi/limo/Uber driver. * A helicopter to avoid traffic. * A dishwasher / clothes washer * Electrical hand-tools to make construction faster * A secretary / admin assistant * Amazon MechTurk * AAA membership as opposed to standing in line at the California DMV * A cousin of mine makes a living navigating local governments to gain building permits for her customers Tristan Harris even argues that there is an "attention economy". I worked at a tiny social media website in 2008+, which was effectively destroyed by the rise of Facebook. Hell, we even saw that as our users grew up and went to college, we lost their attention. The entire marketing industry is about competing for the attention of users, which is also a zero-sum game.
- FussyZeus 9y ago
  > WHOA, NOW. Time is a zero-sum game. The scarcity of time is not even close to "irrelevant to Capitalism". Economists compare productivity gains as the ability to produce more widgets in the same amount of time. Once widgets materialize in a box and can be moved immediately via non-human means to whomever needs them, or more likely, simply be removed from the box by the human who wanted the widget, the friction becomes 0. It's no longer about who can get the widget made faster unless you talk about the efficiency of the replicator itself, and that will likely approach a certain baseline point as well. The thing is the further along you go on this curve, the faster all of these things will work to improve each other. Why have a prepackaged meal when you could have the exact molecular composition of a fantastic soufflé made by a five star chef in Paris, instantly, for the cost of running your replicator for 10 seconds? Why take a helicopter to avoid traffic when automated streets have made the few commutes that remain extremely fast? Who cares about shipping you things when the product you bought materializes next to your oven? You're talking incremental improvements in the next 10 years. That's not going to do anything I've discussed. I'm talking the theoretical and in my mind, inevitable conclusion to capitalism: that all goods and services are worthless; not because we don't need them, but because they don't cost us anything.