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Automation will be the first blow to Capitalism, the richer nations around the world are already experiencing the first stages of post-capitalism where resource

Automation will be the first blow to Capitalism, the richer nations around the world are already experiencing the first stages of post-capitalism where resources and goods are so cheap that there's no point in selling them anymore. Once we do get to the mythical replicator, that's it, material goods no longer have value. That is the logical point where Capitalism ceases to function.

turbinerneiter 9y ago
> resources and goods are so cheap that there's no point in selling them anymore That's a good point. Adjacent, but related, I was thinking about starting a company to develop, make and sell educational tools to school. Think micro:bit-like boards, robot kits, water rocket kits, stuff to do experiments, along with the content for the teacher. I didn't do it for a lot of reasons, but one issue I constantly ran into was that market_size * price * profit_span was always just small. Not worth it.
jp555 9y ago
The human capacity for desire is infinite. We will never stop learning to do more with less (economizing = economy). Do you also believe everything that will ever be invented has already been invented? Less resource allocation for X means more resources to invent Y.
- FussyZeus 9y ago
  Of course not. I'm saying that once we have a machine that can build any material using nothing but energy (the Star Trek replicator, basically) and once we have sufficient access to for lack of a better word, infinite energy, then material goods no longer have value. Capitalism is built on the idea of scarcity, once scarcity is obsolete, I see no reason why Capitalism would not also be obsolete. Example: Platinum is a valuable metal because the supply is limited and the process to acquire more is difficult, costly, and dangerous. If for example you invented a machine that could turn, I don't know, wrought iron into platinum, then the value of platinum decreases. So, once you have this deus ex machina that can create matter from energy, anywhere, at any time at very little cost, then any and all material goods that were once scarce and therefore valuable now are worth whatever the energy cost is to get them made by the replicator and no more.
  - jp555 9y ago
    Many things have gone from extremely costly to almost free (Aluminum used to cost more than gold, now we wrap food in it), but that just freed up those resources to be allocated to something else where there is scarcity. This is what the force of Capitalism & free enterprise does. Fame is an example of another scarce resource that will not diminish even with magic energy and magic alchemy. In fact, it would only become more valuable as there is a lot more resources freed up to allocate to it. There's always going to be scarcity. You can't make more time. Unless you think we'll all have time machines as well?
    - FussyZeus 9y ago
      Well unless you plan to have a Startup that sells Time, the scarcity of time is rather irrelevant to Capitalism, no? It has to be something a business can solve for you. Time Travel seems unlikely but treatments to extend the life of a human being so they have more time? Absolutely within the realm of possibilities, but where the first round of those will likely cost thousands if not hundreds of thousands and be newsworthy, centuries from now when those treatments are commonplace, they'll be getting cheaper and cheaper too just like aluminum did. And again you're not addressing my raw point: that scarcity is the basis of Capitalistic goods and businesses, and that once scarcity is made obsolete by the unstoppable march of technology, once material goods, everything from toilet paper all the way up to time-defying treatments comes out of our Replicator, then what is left to be scarce? The only way at such a time to maintain scarcity and therefore capitalism is to impose it artificially, and if you knowingly withhold things that could be made free, realistically and practically, for everyone simply to continue making money, I'm sorry but that is the height of evil.
  - thephyber 9y ago
    From another FussyZeus comment: > Well unless you plan to have a Startup that sells Time, the scarcity of time is rather irrelevant to Capitalism, no? WHOA, NOW. Time is a zero-sum game. The scarcity of time is not even close to "irrelevant to Capitalism". Economists compare productivity gains as the ability to produce more widgets in the same amount of time. The wealthy generally value their time much higher than the poor, so there is a spectrum. Are you saying that there's no value added in a company saving you time? * USPS delivering mail to your house rather than a PO Box. * Amazon/etailer website ordering as opposed to brick and mortar * Doordash, Google Shopping Express, InstaCart, etc * FedEx/UPS delivering to your door, rather than * Pre-packaged meals. * A taxi/limo/Uber driver. * A helicopter to avoid traffic. * A dishwasher / clothes washer * Electrical hand-tools to make construction faster * A secretary / admin assistant * Amazon MechTurk * AAA membership as opposed to standing in line at the California DMV * A cousin of mine makes a living navigating local governments to gain building permits for her customers Tristan Harris even argues that there is an "attention economy". I worked at a tiny social media website in 2008+, which was effectively destroyed by the rise of Facebook. Hell, we even saw that as our users grew up and went to college, we lost their attention. The entire marketing industry is about competing for the attention of users, which is also a zero-sum game.

turbinerneiter 9y ago

> resources and goods are so cheap that there's no point in selling them anymore That's a good point. Adjacent, but related, I was thinking about starting a company to develop, make and sell educational tools to school. Think micro:bit-like boards, robot kits, water rocket kits, stuff to do experiments, along with the content for the teacher. I didn't do it for a lot of reasons, but one issue I constantly ran into was that market_size * price * profit_span was always just small. Not worth it.

jp555 9y ago

The human capacity for desire is infinite. We will never stop learning to do more with less (economizing = economy). Do you also believe everything that will ever be invented has already been invented? Less resource allocation for X means more resources to invent Y.

FussyZeus 9y ago
Of course not. I'm saying that once we have a machine that can build any material using nothing but energy (the Star Trek replicator, basically) and once we have sufficient access to for lack of a better word, infinite energy, then material goods no longer have value. Capitalism is built on the idea of scarcity, once scarcity is obsolete, I see no reason why Capitalism would not also be obsolete. Example: Platinum is a valuable metal because the supply is limited and the process to acquire more is difficult, costly, and dangerous. If for example you invented a machine that could turn, I don't know, wrought iron into platinum, then the value of platinum decreases. So, once you have this deus ex machina that can create matter from energy, anywhere, at any time at very little cost, then any and all material goods that were once scarce and therefore valuable now are worth whatever the energy cost is to get them made by the replicator and no more.
- jp555 9y ago
  Many things have gone from extremely costly to almost free (Aluminum used to cost more than gold, now we wrap food in it), but that just freed up those resources to be allocated to something else where there is scarcity. This is what the force of Capitalism & free enterprise does. Fame is an example of another scarce resource that will not diminish even with magic energy and magic alchemy. In fact, it would only become more valuable as there is a lot more resources freed up to allocate to it. There's always going to be scarcity. You can't make more time. Unless you think we'll all have time machines as well?
  - FussyZeus 9y ago
    Well unless you plan to have a Startup that sells Time, the scarcity of time is rather irrelevant to Capitalism, no? It has to be something a business can solve for you. Time Travel seems unlikely but treatments to extend the life of a human being so they have more time? Absolutely within the realm of possibilities, but where the first round of those will likely cost thousands if not hundreds of thousands and be newsworthy, centuries from now when those treatments are commonplace, they'll be getting cheaper and cheaper too just like aluminum did. And again you're not addressing my raw point: that scarcity is the basis of Capitalistic goods and businesses, and that once scarcity is made obsolete by the unstoppable march of technology, once material goods, everything from toilet paper all the way up to time-defying treatments comes out of our Replicator, then what is left to be scarce? The only way at such a time to maintain scarcity and therefore capitalism is to impose it artificially, and if you knowingly withhold things that could be made free, realistically and practically, for everyone simply to continue making money, I'm sorry but that is the height of evil.
- thephyber 9y ago
  From another FussyZeus comment: > Well unless you plan to have a Startup that sells Time, the scarcity of time is rather irrelevant to Capitalism, no? WHOA, NOW. Time is a zero-sum game. The scarcity of time is not even close to "irrelevant to Capitalism". Economists compare productivity gains as the ability to produce more widgets in the same amount of time. The wealthy generally value their time much higher than the poor, so there is a spectrum. Are you saying that there's no value added in a company saving you time? * USPS delivering mail to your house rather than a PO Box. * Amazon/etailer website ordering as opposed to brick and mortar * Doordash, Google Shopping Express, InstaCart, etc * FedEx/UPS delivering to your door, rather than * Pre-packaged meals. * A taxi/limo/Uber driver. * A helicopter to avoid traffic. * A dishwasher / clothes washer * Electrical hand-tools to make construction faster * A secretary / admin assistant * Amazon MechTurk * AAA membership as opposed to standing in line at the California DMV * A cousin of mine makes a living navigating local governments to gain building permits for her customers Tristan Harris even argues that there is an "attention economy". I worked at a tiny social media website in 2008+, which was effectively destroyed by the rise of Facebook. Hell, we even saw that as our users grew up and went to college, we lost their attention. The entire marketing industry is about competing for the attention of users, which is also a zero-sum game.