7 ms·

I do not like Guido's language design instincts, but his respect for his users' existing code is admirable, and has proved to work very well for Python.

by wingo 16y ago

clutchski 16y ago
"I do not like Guido's language design instincts" I am curious. What don't you like?
- wingo 16y ago
  Tough to say. You will not like this answer, as it is not precise. I think it's that when I hack python (and I did so professionally for a few years), I feel like someone is trying to tell me what to do. I don't like being told what to do.
  - bdr 16y ago
    Makes sense. "There should be one — and preferably only one — obvious way to do it."
    - pavelludiq 16y ago
      Notice the words "should", "preferably" and "obvious". Sometimes some people miss these for some reason and they read "There is only one way to do it", which is a shame because they either like it as an idea(which means they are mentally limited), or hate python for it(which means they are ignorant of the languages flexibility.
- mahmud 16y ago
  GvR showed complete misunderstanding of recursion until someone mailed him a copy of SICP. http://twitter.com/gvanrossum/status/1838308947 http://twitter.com/gvanrossum/status/1838308947 And the bibliography: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8lgp0/guido_van_rossum_somebody_mailed_me_a_copy/c09ogre http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8lgp0/guido_van...
  - studer 16y ago
    Oh, please. It's not like anyone's forcing you to be an trolling asshole, so why do you gladly volunteer? You don't know Guido, and you don't have the slightest idea what he knows and not.
    - mahmud 16y ago
      By his own admission: "A lot of people remarked that in my post on Tail Recursion Elimination I confused tail self-recursion with other tail calls, which proper Tail Call Optimization (TCO) also eliminates. I now feel more educated: tail calls are not just about loops" http://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2009/04/final-words-on-tail-calls.html http://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2009/04/final-words-on-tail-... What exactly did your reply contribute, aside from calling me a "trolling asshole"?
      - moe 16y ago
        So, Guido had a misconception about something, was educated about it, is now smarter than before - and freely admitting it. Seems like quite a normal thing to me (it's called "learning"), so what's the big deal here? Is Guido not allowed to make mistakes?
        Scriptor 16y ago
        The "Benevolent Dictator" of a major language is still learning some basics of language design 18 years into starting that language. I'd more more okay with it if Guido didn't have such a strong grasp on the language's future.
        moe 16y ago
        I don't agree with all of his decisions either but find it a bit ridiculous to call him out on "not knowing the basics", given he created one of the most popular scripting languages in existence. As I understood the discussion there is no definite "right" or "wrong" on the issue anyways - it's merely one of the many tradeoffs. Quite possibly one where he wasn't fully aware of all details and implications. But heck, if you need to argue then how about arguing for or against a particular way to do TCO in python instead of going ad hominem against the guy who built the entire playground that you're building your little sandcastles in?

I do not like Guido's language design instincts, but his respect for his users' existing code is admirable, and has proved to work very well for Python.

by wingo 16y ago

I do not like Guido's language design instincts, but his respect for his users' existing code is admirable, and has proved to work very well for Python.

clutchski 16y ago

"I do not like Guido's language design instincts" I am curious. What don't you like?

wingo 16y ago
Tough to say. You will not like this answer, as it is not precise. I think it's that when I hack python (and I did so professionally for a few years), I feel like someone is trying to tell me what to do. I don't like being told what to do.
- bdr 16y ago
  Makes sense. "There should be one — and preferably only one — obvious way to do it."
  - pavelludiq 16y ago
    Notice the words "should", "preferably" and "obvious". Sometimes some people miss these for some reason and they read "There is only one way to do it", which is a shame because they either like it as an idea(which means they are mentally limited), or hate python for it(which means they are ignorant of the languages flexibility.
mahmud 16y ago
GvR showed complete misunderstanding of recursion until someone mailed him a copy of SICP. http://twitter.com/gvanrossum/status/1838308947 http://twitter.com/gvanrossum/status/1838308947 And the bibliography: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8lgp0/guido_van_rossum_somebody_mailed_me_a_copy/c09ogre http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8lgp0/guido_van...
- studer 16y ago
  Oh, please. It's not like anyone's forcing you to be an trolling asshole, so why do you gladly volunteer? You don't know Guido, and you don't have the slightest idea what he knows and not.
  - mahmud 16y ago
    By his own admission: "A lot of people remarked that in my post on Tail Recursion Elimination I confused tail self-recursion with other tail calls, which proper Tail Call Optimization (TCO) also eliminates. I now feel more educated: tail calls are not just about loops" http://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2009/04/final-words-on-tail-calls.html http://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2009/04/final-words-on-tail-... What exactly did your reply contribute, aside from calling me a "trolling asshole"?
    - moe 16y ago
      So, Guido had a misconception about something, was educated about it, is now smarter than before - and freely admitting it. Seems like quite a normal thing to me (it's called "learning"), so what's the big deal here? Is Guido not allowed to make mistakes?
      - Scriptor 16y ago
        The "Benevolent Dictator" of a major language is still learning some basics of language design 18 years into starting that language. I'd more more okay with it if Guido didn't have such a strong grasp on the language's future.
        moe 16y ago
        I don't agree with all of his decisions either but find it a bit ridiculous to call him out on "not knowing the basics", given he created one of the most popular scripting languages in existence. As I understood the discussion there is no definite "right" or "wrong" on the issue anyways - it's merely one of the many tradeoffs. Quite possibly one where he wasn't fully aware of all details and implications. But heck, if you need to argue then how about arguing for or against a particular way to do TCO in python instead of going ad hominem against the guy who built the entire playground that you're building your little sandcastles in?