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Why wait for college to teach critical thinking skills? My father is a prof at a major university and we grew up discussing ideas, but high schools can teach c

Why wait for college to teach critical thinking skills? My father is a prof at a major university and we grew up discussing ideas, but high schools can teach critical thinking skills and problem solving. My high school was owned by the university and we did a lot of critical thinking. Jewish religious schools (Yeshivas) teach critical thinking skills by studying the Talmud [1]. A number of Yeshiva students take the LSATs and skip college altogether to go directly to law school so powerful is the process of learning Talmud. Basically Talmud is full of (often) legal arguments and stories and a lot of time is spent on thinking through/arguing edge conditions (e.g., a piece of property is found overlapping public space and private space). The point is that college is absolutely not necessary to teach critical thinking skills and in my opinion this should be started at a much younger age. Incidentally, I have found even graduates of Ivy League schools seem to not understand basic fundamentals. For example, in Economics, they don't seem to understand why housing is so expensive in certain cities and don't seem to have the analytical skills to understand why prices are high. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud

kingkawn 9y ago
Have a professor for a parent or convert to Orthodox Judaism, got it
clavalle 9y ago
Agreed. Critical thinking isn't a subject, it is a framework. It seems foolish to allow a framework of non-critical thinking to take root for 13 years then expect a few classes to tear down and rebuild those habits of thought. Further, arguing edge conditions and inserting plausible falsehoods that must be discovered or synthesis of ideas into unfamiliar areas is just more engaging and fun then accepting happy-path truths as a given and reciting them or performing well understood synthesis.
- jdmichal 9y ago
  Honestly, it begins in math education, and very early. Math is a field entirely founded around and dedicated to solving problems. Yet, its foundation concepts are often taught as formulas and rules. It's the perfect place to start introducing problems and allowing / leading students to work through them. I'll copy-paste another comment I made a while ago: "This is the consequence of not teaching domains of problem-solving through actual problem-solving. You see the same thing in math. I had an excellent practitioner of this method for AP calculus. I learned limits by attempting to find the area under a curve using ever-shrinking rectangles, until we got to pushing them to zero width. And now, 15 years later, I still remember the concept. I don't necessarily remember how to do any particular problem involving limits, but I know what limits are and when they apply to a problem." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11966570#11970303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11966570#11970303
jrs95 9y ago
I totally agree. If the K-12 system doesn't do something about this, colleges aren't going to be able to do much to fix it.
sametmax 9y ago
I agree that critical thinking should be taugth sooner. A 12 years old can perfectly handle it. I got the most jewish name ever, however, I can't agree with you on the Talmud. Just like the Bible and the Coran, it's full of things that goes exactly in the opposite direction of critical thinking. And religion, while helping with a lot of things like holding communities and sharing values, is definitly using a huge number of arguments that are totally in opposition with critical thinking. Starting by the fact that all of it is based on the assumption you believe in Yahweh. However, since the Jewish community itself is pretty well educated, it's easy to be biased.
- davidf18 9y ago
  I have learned Talmud without being religious and it is very, very educational in my opinion and very interesting. If you study it you will see that it is full of critical thinking and different ways of looking at the same issue. It has been translated into Korean and a number of Koreans study it to help them to be better at thinking [1]. Check out an Artscroll Talmud which has a good English translation. There might even be something on-line. Also, much of critical thinking in my opinion is cultural. In some cultures, children "are to be seen and not heard." In the Passover Seder (The Last Supper was a Passover Seder) the youngest child at the Seder asks "The 4 questions" (memorized ahead of the ceremony of course). [1] http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/how-the-talmud-became-a-best-seller-in-south-korea http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/how-the-talmud-be...
  - rickdale 9y ago
    Well, speaking from a secular point of view, studying the Talmud in and of itself makes you religious regardless of the education you are getting from it. You are funny. You are basically orthodox for whats considered Jewish around me and yet you don't even think of yourself as ,"very religious".
    - davidf18 9y ago
      Well, I'm glad you find me amusing. Using your logic, studying Physics makes me a Physicist. Studying Mathematics makes me a Mathematician. Also, I think that the Koreans who study Talmud might not think that they are religious. Honestly, anyone with intellectual curiosity I feel would find the Talmud interesting, regardless of being non-religious or of an ethnicity other than Judaism.
magic_beans 9y ago
I've read that many yeshiva students in New York City Orthodox communites [1] lack English skills. What is the percentage of yeshiva students who are well-prepared enough to just skip college and take the LSAT? 1 https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/01/nyregion/new-york-city-questions-english-math-and-science-taught-at-yeshivas.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/01/nyregion/new-york-city-qu...
- linkmotif 9y ago
  Plenty. Nytimes likes profiling extremes and making them look normal.
lr4444lr 9y ago
What law schools admit people without an (undergrad) college transcript?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- davidf18 9y ago
  Cardoza and at least one case of Columbia. I'd guess there are others.
msluyter 9y ago
The best introduction to logic and critical thinking I ever experienced was in a high school english class. In particular, understanding the various informal fallacies (hasty generalization, post hoc ergo propter hoc, argumentum ad populum, etc...) was extremely influential in turning me into a young rationalist.

kingkawn 9y ago

Have a professor for a parent or convert to Orthodox Judaism, got it

clavalle 9y ago

Agreed. Critical thinking isn't a subject, it is a framework. It seems foolish to allow a framework of non-critical thinking to take root for 13 years then expect a few classes to tear down and rebuild those habits of thought. Further, arguing edge conditions and inserting plausible falsehoods that must be discovered or synthesis of ideas into unfamiliar areas is just more engaging and fun then accepting happy-path truths as a given and reciting them or performing well understood synthesis.

jdmichal 9y ago
Honestly, it begins in math education, and very early. Math is a field entirely founded around and dedicated to solving problems. Yet, its foundation concepts are often taught as formulas and rules. It's the perfect place to start introducing problems and allowing / leading students to work through them. I'll copy-paste another comment I made a while ago: "This is the consequence of not teaching domains of problem-solving through actual problem-solving. You see the same thing in math. I had an excellent practitioner of this method for AP calculus. I learned limits by attempting to find the area under a curve using ever-shrinking rectangles, until we got to pushing them to zero width. And now, 15 years later, I still remember the concept. I don't necessarily remember how to do any particular problem involving limits, but I know what limits are and when they apply to a problem." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11966570#11970303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11966570#11970303

jrs95 9y ago

I totally agree. If the K-12 system doesn't do something about this, colleges aren't going to be able to do much to fix it.

sametmax 9y ago

I agree that critical thinking should be taugth sooner. A 12 years old can perfectly handle it. I got the most jewish name ever, however, I can't agree with you on the Talmud. Just like the Bible and the Coran, it's full of things that goes exactly in the opposite direction of critical thinking. And religion, while helping with a lot of things like holding communities and sharing values, is definitly using a huge number of arguments that are totally in opposition with critical thinking. Starting by the fact that all of it is based on the assumption you believe in Yahweh. However, since the Jewish community itself is pretty well educated, it's easy to be biased.

davidf18 9y ago
I have learned Talmud without being religious and it is very, very educational in my opinion and very interesting. If you study it you will see that it is full of critical thinking and different ways of looking at the same issue. It has been translated into Korean and a number of Koreans study it to help them to be better at thinking [1]. Check out an Artscroll Talmud which has a good English translation. There might even be something on-line. Also, much of critical thinking in my opinion is cultural. In some cultures, children "are to be seen and not heard." In the Passover Seder (The Last Supper was a Passover Seder) the youngest child at the Seder asks "The 4 questions" (memorized ahead of the ceremony of course). [1] http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/how-the-talmud-became-a-best-seller-in-south-korea http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/how-the-talmud-be...
- rickdale 9y ago
  Well, speaking from a secular point of view, studying the Talmud in and of itself makes you religious regardless of the education you are getting from it. You are funny. You are basically orthodox for whats considered Jewish around me and yet you don't even think of yourself as ,"very religious".
  - davidf18 9y ago
    Well, I'm glad you find me amusing. Using your logic, studying Physics makes me a Physicist. Studying Mathematics makes me a Mathematician. Also, I think that the Koreans who study Talmud might not think that they are religious. Honestly, anyone with intellectual curiosity I feel would find the Talmud interesting, regardless of being non-religious or of an ethnicity other than Judaism.

magic_beans 9y ago

I've read that many yeshiva students in New York City Orthodox communites [1] lack English skills. What is the percentage of yeshiva students who are well-prepared enough to just skip college and take the LSAT? 1 https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/01/nyregion/new-york-city-questions-english-math-and-science-taught-at-yeshivas.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/01/nyregion/new-york-city-qu...

linkmotif 9y ago
Plenty. Nytimes likes profiling extremes and making them look normal.

lr4444lr 9y ago

What law schools admit people without an (undergrad) college transcript?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
davidf18 9y ago
Cardoza and at least one case of Columbia. I'd guess there are others.

msluyter 9y ago

The best introduction to logic and critical thinking I ever experienced was in a high school english class. In particular, understanding the various informal fallacies (hasty generalization, post hoc ergo propter hoc, argumentum ad populum, etc...) was extremely influential in turning me into a young rationalist.