4 ms·

I had a friend who lived in Bisbee, Arizona, which is a small town next to the border that has a big border patrol station in the city. He said that because of

I had a friend who lived in Bisbee, Arizona, which is a small town next to the border that has a big border patrol station in the city. He said that because of the border patrol presence there aren't any illegal aliens around to do construction. He could only get cheap labor from ex-convicts. It made me think that typically ex-cons have formed the lowest rung in the economic ladder that illegal aliens now fulfill.

thriftwy 9y ago
How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Yesterday people expected cheap construction labor, today they complain there's not enough cheap home nurses around. I wonder if they'll aim for cheap software development labor tomorrow. I wonder why I don't feel entitled to cheap caviar and cheap yachts?
- xor1 9y ago
  >How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Tell that to all of the companies that outsource manufacturing.
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    Outsource manufacturing is a slightly different case because the labor might not be 'cheap' in the offshore country. Offshore workers are often abused, but when they are not they might be paid a decent wage which is also peanuts when onsite wages are considered. You profit from arbitraging cost of living, not from exploitation. Even if we enforce unions at oursource locations with wage control, outsource manufacturing won't disappear overnight.
- jaggi1 9y ago
  > How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Sure! but will you rent a place that is $500 expensive while bringing no additional benefit other than it employed someone at higher wages ?
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    When I was doing renovation at my place, I think I could go for much cheaper labor. Deadlines will likely slip, tho, as quality of work. I would perhaps end up paying more for worse result. Try to pay as much as feasible for the actual work, as few as possible for overhead. You end up paying extra for 'cheap' labor anyway, in the form of higher taxes for those who have to pay them, that includes you. Less transparent economy leads to what is discussed in parent article. All what 'cheap' labor does is lining the pockets of middle men selling this snake oil. With your money.
  - irixusr 9y ago
    Yes. Well no, because of lack of general availability. But I pay extra for many things to avoid certain corporate behaviour. In a free market, that's my right. We're trying to wean ourselves off of Amazon, in fact, but we're a one-car family, and Prime is an amazing service.
  - webnrrd2k 9y ago
    There is very often is an additional benefit. It just isn't directly to you. Isn't that what minimum wage is all about? And disability, social security, and public education? There are lots of benefits to these programs, but the benefits often go directly to someone else, and indirectly back to whoever paid for them. Also, I think a lot of problems come from paying the cheapest possible price, rather that paying for value. An over-focus on short-term profits causes a lot of long-term issues.
- Applejinx 9y ago
  in the UK, they are doing their best to optimize for cheap police. Seems a worrying trend with no clear boundaries.
- mathiasben 9y ago
  - I wonder why I don't feel entitled to cheap caviar and cheap yachts? - both of which are available if you're interested.
- irixusr 9y ago
  I'm not entitled to their labour, I can't afford higher price labour (well I can). Also, middle class salaries can barely afford current rates (in this forum we're mostly upper middle class or higher. A lot looks cheap to us. Do the math for the cost to salary for a child care facility. Costs a fortune even for us, yet the employees are getting paid peanuts. ) Which, if there is a real labour shortage, is fine with me. I'll just forgo the project I wanted to build, build less. Whatever. But there isn't a labour shortage. At least not when you look at particulars segments, locations, past-histories, ect. I'm not trying to push any ideology here. I'm just saying that the economy, actually, sucks despite what point estimates that grossly overgeneralize are saying. It sucked under Bush. It sucked more under Obama. And it getting suckier under Trump. Why? I don't know. In the meantime hire a local contractor and pay them double their rate (or give the employees a tip == to the cost of the service < this is what I do to my monthly cleaners)
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    Imagine if less people will be working illegally and taxation will be more transparent, with more people paying their share, with less spent on prisons for people who could be gainfully employed - you will probably have free child care, paid for by taxes. Staffed with legal workers too.
- knodi123 9y ago
  > I wonder why I don't feel entitled to cheap caviar and cheap yachts? Let's stick to discussing services. In well-populated niches like construction, nursing, and software development, you can safely assume that competition will make the price of the service as low as it can reasonably go and still get acceptable quality. If construction labor costs go up to whatever point you consider "fair", then the cost of the finished products will rise to compensate. If you extrapolate this out for the results of all super-low-priced labor, then lots of costs go up, and the middle class suddenly has less buying power than before. Why, they'd need a raise just to keep the same standard of living! It's a web, you can't tug on one part without moving lots of others. The only "stretch" available in this web is people who are earning more than they are actually worth, like some CEOs or Waltons. Which, come to think of it, is not that dear to me. So okay, fine, let's start raising the minimum wage.

thriftwy 9y ago

How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Yesterday people expected cheap construction labor, today they complain there's not enough cheap home nurses around. I wonder if they'll aim for cheap software development labor tomorrow. I wonder why I don't feel entitled to cheap caviar and cheap yachts?

xor1 9y ago
>How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Tell that to all of the companies that outsource manufacturing.
- thriftwy 9y ago
  Outsource manufacturing is a slightly different case because the labor might not be 'cheap' in the offshore country. Offshore workers are often abused, but when they are not they might be paid a decent wage which is also peanuts when onsite wages are considered. You profit from arbitraging cost of living, not from exploitation. Even if we enforce unions at oursource locations with wage control, outsource manufacturing won't disappear overnight.
jaggi1 9y ago
> How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Sure! but will you rent a place that is $500 expensive while bringing no additional benefit other than it employed someone at higher wages ?
- thriftwy 9y ago
  When I was doing renovation at my place, I think I could go for much cheaper labor. Deadlines will likely slip, tho, as quality of work. I would perhaps end up paying more for worse result. Try to pay as much as feasible for the actual work, as few as possible for overhead. You end up paying extra for 'cheap' labor anyway, in the form of higher taxes for those who have to pay them, that includes you. Less transparent economy leads to what is discussed in parent article. All what 'cheap' labor does is lining the pockets of middle men selling this snake oil. With your money.
- irixusr 9y ago
  Yes. Well no, because of lack of general availability. But I pay extra for many things to avoid certain corporate behaviour. In a free market, that's my right. We're trying to wean ourselves off of Amazon, in fact, but we're a one-car family, and Prime is an amazing service.
- webnrrd2k 9y ago
  There is very often is an additional benefit. It just isn't directly to you. Isn't that what minimum wage is all about? And disability, social security, and public education? There are lots of benefits to these programs, but the benefits often go directly to someone else, and indirectly back to whoever paid for them. Also, I think a lot of problems come from paying the cheapest possible price, rather that paying for value. An over-focus on short-term profits causes a lot of long-term issues.
Applejinx 9y ago
in the UK, they are doing their best to optimize for cheap police. Seems a worrying trend with no clear boundaries.
mathiasben 9y ago
- I wonder why I don't feel entitled to cheap caviar and cheap yachts? - both of which are available if you're interested.
irixusr 9y ago
I'm not entitled to their labour, I can't afford higher price labour (well I can). Also, middle class salaries can barely afford current rates (in this forum we're mostly upper middle class or higher. A lot looks cheap to us. Do the math for the cost to salary for a child care facility. Costs a fortune even for us, yet the employees are getting paid peanuts. ) Which, if there is a real labour shortage, is fine with me. I'll just forgo the project I wanted to build, build less. Whatever. But there isn't a labour shortage. At least not when you look at particulars segments, locations, past-histories, ect. I'm not trying to push any ideology here. I'm just saying that the economy, actually, sucks despite what point estimates that grossly overgeneralize are saying. It sucked under Bush. It sucked more under Obama. And it getting suckier under Trump. Why? I don't know. In the meantime hire a local contractor and pay them double their rate (or give the employees a tip == to the cost of the service < this is what I do to my monthly cleaners)
- thriftwy 9y ago
  Imagine if less people will be working illegally and taxation will be more transparent, with more people paying their share, with less spent on prisons for people who could be gainfully employed - you will probably have free child care, paid for by taxes. Staffed with legal workers too.
knodi123 9y ago
> I wonder why I don't feel entitled to cheap caviar and cheap yachts? Let's stick to discussing services. In well-populated niches like construction, nursing, and software development, you can safely assume that competition will make the price of the service as low as it can reasonably go and still get acceptable quality. If construction labor costs go up to whatever point you consider "fair", then the cost of the finished products will rise to compensate. If you extrapolate this out for the results of all super-low-priced labor, then lots of costs go up, and the middle class suddenly has less buying power than before. Why, they'd need a raise just to keep the same standard of living! It's a web, you can't tug on one part without moving lots of others. The only "stretch" available in this web is people who are earning more than they are actually worth, like some CEOs or Waltons. Which, come to think of it, is not that dear to me. So okay, fine, let's start raising the minimum wage.