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giving criminals rights is a politically toxic because of religious doctrine: the point of jail is not to learn, but to suffer. the idea is if you flagrantly d

by soup10 9y ago

giving criminals rights is a politically toxic because of religious doctrine: the point of jail is not to learn, but to suffer. the idea is if you flagrantly disrespect god(aka the power structure of the society you live in), you must suffer as an example to others. Its not an ideal system, but there's a certain sensibility to it that stabilizes society. If people saw those that go to jail, come out better persons. They might get the idea that the criminal is a leadership figure, or that they too might become better persons after experimenting with crime. I'm a strong believer in prison reform, and treating criminals as victims of the difficult choices life offers you. It shouldn't be the accepted standard to put them in a cage and forget they exist, we need to show them the flaws of their moral system: we need to preach to them until they concede the errors of their ways and show meekness.

emodendroket 9y ago
What "religious doctrine" would that be?
- narag 9y ago
  A clue: there are a number of religions that include the concept of hell. Hell is the ultimate retribution, in case society wasn't able to apply it in this world. The underlying idea is that justice is a balance. If someone commits a crime, the reality is unbalanced and equilibrium must be restored punishing the culprit. This idea has been developed by some philosophers, Kant IIRC (but a lot of Kant's work is mostly a repackaging of Christianism). Edit, just to add some history: justice system was very entangled with religion since forever. Romans were the ones that greatly developed the technical aspects. There was the directum --the righteous thing-- aspect vs the ius, the technical one, the contracts, the seek of solutions and social peace.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    The idea that some people are irredeemable seems to be rather against the current of most Christian thought.
    - orasis 9y ago
      Christians overwhelmingly elected Trump. Perhaps Christian != a follower of the teachings of Christ.
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        Well then why are we talking about "religious doctrine"?
    - grasshopperpurp 9y ago
      America's brand of Christianity doesn't care about Jesus. It cares about the wrath of the Old Testament and the rules of Paul.
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        America does not have one single brand of Christianity but countless sects with views and member demographics that differ significantly.
        anigbrowl 9y ago
        Yes, and a lot of these sects are extremely authoritarian and have significant membership.
        grasshopperpurp 9y ago
        You're not wrong, but I'm referring to the specific brand of Protestant American Christianity that the country started pushing in the 50s. There are, of course, differences, but - as a group - they're pretty similar on major issues. http://www.npr.org/2015/03/30/396365659/how-one-nation-didnt-become-under-god-until-the-50s-religious-revival http://www.npr.org/2015/03/30/396365659/how-one-nation-didnt...
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  Dominionism, which is derived from Calvinism and which enjoys significant popularity in the US. There are some extremely militant and aggressive strains of Christianity out there. Just because you're not familiar with them doesn't mean they only have a few adherents.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    I'm still not sure about the OP's assertion, but more than that I feel like if you're going to posit that religious doctrine is the reason you ought to be able to specify what doctrine you mean and not just make a handwaving gesture in the general direction of religion. And besides that, there is a history of the opposite impulse in American politics also coming from religion -- look at Catholic opposition to the death penalty or the Quakers' efforts at reform.
    - anigbrowl 9y ago
      I just gave you a clear answer. I'm sorry, I don't feel like writing a detailed explainer on it today.
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        You gave me some clarification, but I remain unconvinced that what you're proposing is a major influence over more prosaic ones.
lowpro 9y ago
What a silly argument. (Disclaimer: atheist) Your argument doesn't understand what god(s) mean. In what world does anyone use society as an understanding or proxy of god? This argument makes a fallacious assumption as its primary argument then goes on to make other points based off of that incorrect assumption by definition. And besides that, I think you grossly underestimate the stubbornness of many who go to jail in the first place. Getting a human to be humble is one of the toughest things you can do, and that difficulty is often an inverse of intelligence in my experience (are there studies on this? And I'm not talking about the ultra rich or ultra famous people.)
- orasis 9y ago
  How is their argument silly? For many, God is an archetypical metaphor for a Daddy that must be feared and obeyed. Trump's election showed that a huge percentage of religious Americans have an authoritarian bent.
  - lowpro 9y ago
    I've stated this before and I'll state it again: Trump won on his economics, not his social positions. The rust belt won him the election, where many people felt left behind and he promised to bring manufacturing back. It's hard to blame them based on Hillary's position.
    - orasis 9y ago
      Authoritarian tendencies polled strong among Trump supporters.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  Your perspective is uninformed, to say the very least. If you have never been in any religious tradition then you are wholly unqualified to pronounce on its psychological dynamics or its doctrinal interpretation. Multiple religious denominations are based on the notion of predestination, in which one's position on earth is precisely a proxy for the state of one's soul and eternal prospects.
devmunchies 9y ago
The punishment is supposed to be a deterrent for crime. There are 2 camps: Ones that think of jail as a "correctional facility" (a place to fix broken people), and ones that think of it as punishment, justice for a crime. No need to bring religion into everything. Punishment for "crimes" existed before christianity, friend.
sgc 9y ago
That does not resemble any religious doctrine I know of. The predominant one in the US, Christianity, views punishment on earth as corrective in nature, ie for rehabilitation, and also views prisons as serving the purpose of separating bad actors from society so they cannot damage others. There is no place for retribution, vengeance, etc. American culture seems to be fixated with vendetta, but it is not religious in nature at all, just as it has nothing to do with their love of sports.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  You need to learn more. It is warmed-over Calvinism and this strain is widespread in the US thanks to the influence of theologians like the late RJ Rushdoony. Look into the work of Chip Berlet on Christian Dominionism and its influence on politics, as well as Colin Woodard's excellent history book American Nations.
- soup10 9y ago
  At the heart of abrahamic religion is the idea that sinners will suffer God's wrath, in this life or the next. Which in turn gives righteous people the authority to punish sinners, because they are carrying out God's will.
unit91 9y ago
I'm struggling to find the religious doctrine you're describing. Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." Peter: "Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing." Paul: "Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  Dominionism.
  - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    And that's about as mainstream as gargling buffalo saliva. I know a bunch of Christians - mostly Protestant (Evangelical), a few Catholics. I never heard of Dominionism as anything but a warped fringe view. Yeah, I know it exists. Yeah, I know you can quote people who claim it's an influential strain of political thought. I sure don't see it, though.
dang 9y ago
This subthread crosses into religious flamewar. We definitely don't want religious flamewars on HN, so please neither start nor perpetuate them. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14496283 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14496283 and marked it off-topic.

by soup10 9y ago

emodendroket 9y ago

What "religious doctrine" would that be?

narag 9y ago
A clue: there are a number of religions that include the concept of hell. Hell is the ultimate retribution, in case society wasn't able to apply it in this world. The underlying idea is that justice is a balance. If someone commits a crime, the reality is unbalanced and equilibrium must be restored punishing the culprit. This idea has been developed by some philosophers, Kant IIRC (but a lot of Kant's work is mostly a repackaging of Christianism). Edit, just to add some history: justice system was very entangled with religion since forever. Romans were the ones that greatly developed the technical aspects. There was the directum --the righteous thing-- aspect vs the ius, the technical one, the contracts, the seek of solutions and social peace.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  The idea that some people are irredeemable seems to be rather against the current of most Christian thought.
  - orasis 9y ago
    Christians overwhelmingly elected Trump. Perhaps Christian != a follower of the teachings of Christ.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      Well then why are we talking about "religious doctrine"?
  - grasshopperpurp 9y ago
    America's brand of Christianity doesn't care about Jesus. It cares about the wrath of the Old Testament and the rules of Paul.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      America does not have one single brand of Christianity but countless sects with views and member demographics that differ significantly.
      - anigbrowl 9y ago
        Yes, and a lot of these sects are extremely authoritarian and have significant membership.
      - grasshopperpurp 9y ago
        You're not wrong, but I'm referring to the specific brand of Protestant American Christianity that the country started pushing in the 50s. There are, of course, differences, but - as a group - they're pretty similar on major issues. http://www.npr.org/2015/03/30/396365659/how-one-nation-didnt-become-under-god-until-the-50s-religious-revival http://www.npr.org/2015/03/30/396365659/how-one-nation-didnt...
anigbrowl 9y ago
Dominionism, which is derived from Calvinism and which enjoys significant popularity in the US. There are some extremely militant and aggressive strains of Christianity out there. Just because you're not familiar with them doesn't mean they only have a few adherents.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  I'm still not sure about the OP's assertion, but more than that I feel like if you're going to posit that religious doctrine is the reason you ought to be able to specify what doctrine you mean and not just make a handwaving gesture in the general direction of religion. And besides that, there is a history of the opposite impulse in American politics also coming from religion -- look at Catholic opposition to the death penalty or the Quakers' efforts at reform.
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    I just gave you a clear answer. I'm sorry, I don't feel like writing a detailed explainer on it today.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      You gave me some clarification, but I remain unconvinced that what you're proposing is a major influence over more prosaic ones.

lowpro 9y ago

What a silly argument. (Disclaimer: atheist) Your argument doesn't understand what god(s) mean. In what world does anyone use society as an understanding or proxy of god? This argument makes a fallacious assumption as its primary argument then goes on to make other points based off of that incorrect assumption by definition. And besides that, I think you grossly underestimate the stubbornness of many who go to jail in the first place. Getting a human to be humble is one of the toughest things you can do, and that difficulty is often an inverse of intelligence in my experience (are there studies on this? And I'm not talking about the ultra rich or ultra famous people.)

orasis 9y ago
How is their argument silly? For many, God is an archetypical metaphor for a Daddy that must be feared and obeyed. Trump's election showed that a huge percentage of religious Americans have an authoritarian bent.
- lowpro 9y ago
  I've stated this before and I'll state it again: Trump won on his economics, not his social positions. The rust belt won him the election, where many people felt left behind and he promised to bring manufacturing back. It's hard to blame them based on Hillary's position.
  - orasis 9y ago
    Authoritarian tendencies polled strong among Trump supporters.
anigbrowl 9y ago
Your perspective is uninformed, to say the very least. If you have never been in any religious tradition then you are wholly unqualified to pronounce on its psychological dynamics or its doctrinal interpretation. Multiple religious denominations are based on the notion of predestination, in which one's position on earth is precisely a proxy for the state of one's soul and eternal prospects.

devmunchies 9y ago

The punishment is supposed to be a deterrent for crime. There are 2 camps: Ones that think of jail as a "correctional facility" (a place to fix broken people), and ones that think of it as punishment, justice for a crime. No need to bring religion into everything. Punishment for "crimes" existed before christianity, friend.

sgc 9y ago

That does not resemble any religious doctrine I know of. The predominant one in the US, Christianity, views punishment on earth as corrective in nature, ie for rehabilitation, and also views prisons as serving the purpose of separating bad actors from society so they cannot damage others. There is no place for retribution, vengeance, etc. American culture seems to be fixated with vendetta, but it is not religious in nature at all, just as it has nothing to do with their love of sports.

anigbrowl 9y ago
You need to learn more. It is warmed-over Calvinism and this strain is widespread in the US thanks to the influence of theologians like the late RJ Rushdoony. Look into the work of Chip Berlet on Christian Dominionism and its influence on politics, as well as Colin Woodard's excellent history book American Nations.
soup10 9y ago
At the heart of abrahamic religion is the idea that sinners will suffer God's wrath, in this life or the next. Which in turn gives righteous people the authority to punish sinners, because they are carrying out God's will.

unit91 9y ago

I'm struggling to find the religious doctrine you're describing. Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." Peter: "Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing." Paul: "Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."

anigbrowl 9y ago
Dominionism.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  And that's about as mainstream as gargling buffalo saliva. I know a bunch of Christians - mostly Protestant (Evangelical), a few Catholics. I never heard of Dominionism as anything but a warped fringe view. Yeah, I know it exists. Yeah, I know you can quote people who claim it's an influential strain of political thought. I sure don't see it, though.

dang 9y ago

This subthread crosses into religious flamewar. We definitely don't want religious flamewars on HN, so please neither start nor perpetuate them. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14496283 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14496283 and marked it off-topic.