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My first point was that this isn't gender specific. My example was - I don't touch alcohol, I don't like ping pong, or consoles, or any of the things that peopl
by victorhooi 9y ago
My first point was that this isn't gender specific. My example was - I don't touch alcohol, I don't like ping pong, or consoles, or any of the things that people hold up as "bro" culture. But nor am I going to hold it against a workplace if they want to offer those things.
It's not a negative - it's just a thing.
For example - nursing rooms for mothers, or Muslim prayer rooms. I may not use them personally, but I don't see why it's a negative if they're there.
My second point - I have worked in a whole range of companies, from formal to very casual - and for me this is much of a muchness.
To your points.
You claim that we should be suspicious of companies that push "we're so fun". I don't see why it's a warning sign, any more than a workplace that pushes the "we're so formal" is a warning sign. You need to make your own judgement, based on actually interviewing there and interacting with people - and more importantly, one that fits your own ethos and preference.
Some people like formal cultures, some people like more jovial cultures - we shouldn't box them as gender specific, but just something that is unique to each person.
Alcohol likewise - that seems a personal issue, as opposed to something gender specific, or a company directive.
Like I said - I've worked in banking, and trust me, there's a drinking culture (among other vices...). But really, it's a matter of self-control. I never once felt forced to engage in that behaviour if I didn't want to. Perhaps I picked a good firm, or just had good mates.
My point is - whether there's alcohol available or not is a red herring.
And I don't think alcohol is somehow specifically a male thing - once again, I believe it's a personal self-control thing.
I don't drink alcohol - but if somebody is drunk, whether they're a guy or a girl - or whether the gender ratio at my workplace is 60:40 or 80:20 is irrelevant. They are drunk. I'm certainly not going to say - "Oh you're a women but you're drunk...well, that's OK then". Although to be honest, if you're drunk and not causing me any harm, meh.
Gender or alcohol isn't a shield to cover your behaviour - and that flows both ways.
- DanBC 9y ago> I don't drink alcohol - but if somebody is drunk, whether they're a guy or a girl - or whether the gender ratio at my workplace is 60:40 or 80:20 is irrelevant. They are drunk. I'm certainly not going to say - "Oh you're a women but you're drunk...well, that's OK then". Although to be honest, if you're drunk and not causing me any harm, meh. You might want to talk to women about their experiences of drunk men.
- watwut 9y agoMy original point was that when it is formal, personal biases, sympathies and stereotypes matter less. It matter less whether you are comfortable talking to me, because all that is important was said during the meeting. When the workplace is infromal, it is opposite. The amount of people who have those biases will be the same at both workplaces, but one of them is organized in a way that makes them matter less. It is NOT muchness, not when those biases are generally against you. Jovial workplace would be fine if I worked in something women are assumed to be better at, I am not. It has nothing to do with what kind of people I do or would socialize in my free time nor who is more fun. It has nothing to do with alcohol being male of female thing. > But really, it's a matter of self-control. I never once felt forced to engage in that behaviour if I didn't want to. I did not knew requirements changes on project I worked on, because project lead talked about them on beer with buddies. I found out about those changes during code review. The information project lead got from his buddy was that "it will take longer because she wrote bad code". I never got chance to defend myself. This was not singular occurrence. So, no, it does matter if you are someone who is less likely to be given benefit of the doubt.
- wpietri 9y agoAgain, you have generated and extraordinary amount of opinion given that this post was not for you and given your ignorance of the topic. I understand you don't see why these things are problems. What is extraordinary to me is that you have confused "I don't see X" with "X does not exist". And then gone on to blather extensively based on this confusion. I get it. You're a paragon of self control. Congrats. Have a cookie. But you're playing this game at the lowest difficulty setting: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th... Other things become relevant when you play it on different settings. > but if somebody is drunk, whether they're a guy or a girl - or whether the gender ratio at my workplace is 60:40 or 80:20 is irrelevant Irrelevant to you, as a financially comfortable white man. It is not irrelevant to other people. You don't understand why, which is fine. But ignorantly proclaiming on the topic is not fine. Aggressive dismissal of the concerns of other people is part of why large parts of humanity are underrepresented in tech. You are part of the problem. Right here, right now. So ask yourself: what will you do differently next time?
- TACIXAT 9y ago>this post was not for you >your ignorance of the topic >blather extensively >Have a cookie. >Irrelevant to you, as a financially comfortable white man. >ignorantly proclaiming on the topic is not fine >You are part of the problem This isn't meaningful discussion. It's just insults, assumptions, and aggressive dismissal of another person's opinion.
- ForRealsies 9y agoToday's society has lost the ability to debate.
- watwut 9y agoCompared to what :)? I agree that snark like that is more likely to alienate then convict, but it is not modern invention.