6 ms·

Back to the topic, prisons are just another haven for contract robbing. The prison contracts everything from security to mopping. Everything is 3x more expensiv

Back to the topic, prisons are just another haven for contract robbing. The prison contracts everything from security to mopping. Everything is 3x more expensive. Prison costs are a sink to our society. Except taxpayers foot the bill. Theres an economic incentive to keeping crime low and right now were all being robbed blind, in this area as well (because yes there are too many to count) The amount who are released within 5 years with little to no recovery or are going to end up in an even worse state, with even less of an ability to get a job, are more likely to continue to commit crime to make ends meet. Before we talk about Harvard grads destroying the eocnomy, lets talk about making it less and less likely for 75% of the people imprisoned to ever be able to contribute to society once they are released. We have a very protestant implementation of prison, they exist to punish people, not to reabilitate people or address the issues, and everyone ends up paying a higher cost with more damage in the end. Yes people who are doing serious crimes should be put away, but we know that most of the time thats not the case, and furthemore, we know that alot of serious crimes including rape, have men released within 5 years, while a first time offender selling green could land 15 in prison. Maybe.. http://www.takepart.com/article/2013/11/14/some-european-prisons-are-shrinking-and-closing-what-can-america-learn/ http://www.takepart.com/article/2013/11/14/some-european-pri...

ffxtian 9y ago
> Before we talk about Harvard grads destroying the eocnomy, lets talk about making it less and less likely for 75% of the people imprisoned to ever be able to contribute to society once they are released. Why not both?
walshemj 9y ago
To play devils advocate prison contracts have valid extra costs you have to vet contactors more than say an office cleaner. You also have to budget for extra security if your a contractor working in a prison you have to log all of your tools in and out to stop inmates nicking things that could be used as weapons or to aid an escape
- cpfohl 9y ago
  I agree with who on the whole but I'm going to play....Angel's advocate? (What do you call the person playing devil's advocate to the Devil's advocate?) There is a (relatively famous) prison in Norway where the rehabilitation is so effective that the prisoner's are given these jobs and are handed chainsaws, picks, the keys to the boat off the island. The prisoners are the ones ferrying people to and from the prison. Sounds to me like (for the most part) we're doing prison wrong in the states.
  - froindt 9y ago
    What level of security is the prison? There are low security facilities in the United States where prisoners leave to work for the day and have to be back at a certain time.
    - sah2ed 9y ago
      Do you have any link(s) on this?
      - spydum 9y ago
        http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/inmates/wr.html http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/inmates/wr.html
    - irixusr 9y ago
      Agreed. But how many ppl are in low security vs. max security? How easy is it politically to build a min security facility in an area affluent enough to have day jobs for prisoners vs. building a max security prison in the middle of unemployed nowhere?
  - rtkwe 9y ago
    How common is that though? Taking one example is pretty fraught especially because the prisoners that are sent to that prison are naturally going to be of the lower risk, non-violent type unless that's how a majority of the prisons are run. There are prisons in the US with very open security too (though mainly for rich white collar criminals but then that's a group with a low likely-hood of attempting to escape). Heck there's a fair number of programs where prisoners are given big tools like that here in the US too.
smrtinsert 9y ago
Do you mean economic incentive to send people to prison (not necessarily the same thing as keeping crime low)
- matart 9y ago
  Also political as a lot of politicians run on tough on crime
deweyair 9y ago
'The prison contracts everything from security to mopping.' In the vast majority of American prisons, the prisoners do the mopping. Security is still done by guards, but nearly every other job in the prison is done by the offenders. It's much cheaper this way - for state prisons average starting wage for non-industrial jobs is $0.25/hr. Industrial jobs don't start much higher, but they tend to have a higher cap around $2.50/hr instead of the standard cap of $1.00/hr. There are a few cases of offenders making minimum wage, but these are the exception rather than the norm. Prisons are run by the offenders - it's cheaper this way.
- zyx321 9y ago
  And often times they can even sell the surplus labor, which is basically free money for the company operating the prison. (that they can then spend to lobby for harsher sentences)
- usmeteora 9y ago
  So where is the $75k cost to house them coming from? Clearly some contract is too expensive and something is not adding up. For that price, we should have Harvard classes taught at prisons, and maybe these inmates could have a shot at using their disparate lifestyle extremes to have new ways to employ/create new businesses that can improve society in areas where they see/experience/witness need for improvement, and put our tax payers to good work. If every prisoner is cooking mopping and doing whatever for free, where is the $75k/yr coming from?
  - deweyair 9y ago
    According to the article, a big increase in California's state prison system is for salary and medical of the guards. I'm not sure if they're union guards over there, but the prison guard union is pretty powerful in the federal system and many states. As far as other costs go, I'm not sure where they're getting up to 75k/year/offender. My experience has been mostly in the federal and midwest, where average cost of housing an offender for a year in a low/medium security facility is around 20k-25k. It would be interesting to look at their books!
narrator 9y ago
I had a friend who lived in Bisbee, Arizona, which is a small town next to the border that has a big border patrol station in the city. He said that because of the border patrol presence there aren't any illegal aliens around to do construction. He could only get cheap labor from ex-convicts. It made me think that typically ex-cons have formed the lowest rung in the economic ladder that illegal aliens now fulfill.
- thriftwy 9y ago
  How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Yesterday people expected cheap construction labor, today they complain there's not enough cheap home nurses around. I wonder if they'll aim for cheap software development labor tomorrow. I wonder why I don't feel entitled to cheap caviar and cheap yachts?
  - xor1 9y ago
    >How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Tell that to all of the companies that outsource manufacturing.
    - thriftwy 9y ago
      Outsource manufacturing is a slightly different case because the labor might not be 'cheap' in the offshore country. Offshore workers are often abused, but when they are not they might be paid a decent wage which is also peanuts when onsite wages are considered. You profit from arbitraging cost of living, not from exploitation. Even if we enforce unions at oursource locations with wage control, outsource manufacturing won't disappear overnight.
  - jaggi1 9y ago
    > How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Sure! but will you rent a place that is $500 expensive while bringing no additional benefit other than it employed someone at higher wages ?
jondubois 9y ago
Yes the idea of having a criminal record is silly - It's a self-fulfilling label. Once you are labeled a criminal, it only makes it harder to get a job and give up crime. Besides, crime has become such an arbitrary thing. A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes but if a member of society physically steals something from a corporation, they'll go to jail. Why don't corporations like JP Morgan and their executives get a permanent criminal record when they are found guilty of criminal activity? Either it should be consistent for all or it should be abolished entirely.
- shagie 9y ago
  For a Spider-Man approach- https://imgur.com/gallery/gcrPf https://imgur.com/gallery/gcrPf There are a number of companies that exist with the intended purpose of providing jobs to ex convicts. The risk that a regular company takes, however, is one of "this individual has done XYZ when times were hard in the past. How can we be sure they won't again?" This is combined with that for many good paying jobs there are more applications than positions allowing for the "filter by felon" to be a not unreasonable first level filter for HR to apply.
- webXL 9y ago
  I mostly agree that the record makes it harder to get a job and give up crime, but what about the deterrence factor? How many more would commit crimes knowing that it wouldn't have any impact on their ability to get a decent job right after serving some time? > A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes Was it society's to begin with? And you can't completely pin the financial crisis on the likes of JP Morgan when the feds bailed them out with our tax dollars. That was the crime.
  - derekp7 9y ago
    But is there really a deterrence factor? Most people don't commit crimes, due to a personal moral code. Those who have morals that don't get in the way of crime, just use the deterrence factor to find ways of not getting caught. Now what would really help, especially with recidivism, is to use the profit motive of prisons in a different way. First-time offenders-- the prison gets paid full price. If an offender returns to prison, the prison should get paid less, or not at all. That would encourage the private prison system to rehabilitate, and provide post-release re-integration assistance.

ffxtian 9y ago

> Before we talk about Harvard grads destroying the eocnomy, lets talk about making it less and less likely for 75% of the people imprisoned to ever be able to contribute to society once they are released. Why not both?

walshemj 9y ago

To play devils advocate prison contracts have valid extra costs you have to vet contactors more than say an office cleaner. You also have to budget for extra security if your a contractor working in a prison you have to log all of your tools in and out to stop inmates nicking things that could be used as weapons or to aid an escape

cpfohl 9y ago
I agree with who on the whole but I'm going to play....Angel's advocate? (What do you call the person playing devil's advocate to the Devil's advocate?) There is a (relatively famous) prison in Norway where the rehabilitation is so effective that the prisoner's are given these jobs and are handed chainsaws, picks, the keys to the boat off the island. The prisoners are the ones ferrying people to and from the prison. Sounds to me like (for the most part) we're doing prison wrong in the states.
- froindt 9y ago
  What level of security is the prison? There are low security facilities in the United States where prisoners leave to work for the day and have to be back at a certain time.
  - sah2ed 9y ago
    Do you have any link(s) on this?
    - spydum 9y ago
      http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/inmates/wr.html http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/inmates/wr.html
  - irixusr 9y ago
    Agreed. But how many ppl are in low security vs. max security? How easy is it politically to build a min security facility in an area affluent enough to have day jobs for prisoners vs. building a max security prison in the middle of unemployed nowhere?
- rtkwe 9y ago
  How common is that though? Taking one example is pretty fraught especially because the prisoners that are sent to that prison are naturally going to be of the lower risk, non-violent type unless that's how a majority of the prisons are run. There are prisons in the US with very open security too (though mainly for rich white collar criminals but then that's a group with a low likely-hood of attempting to escape). Heck there's a fair number of programs where prisoners are given big tools like that here in the US too.

smrtinsert 9y ago

Do you mean economic incentive to send people to prison (not necessarily the same thing as keeping crime low)

matart 9y ago
Also political as a lot of politicians run on tough on crime

deweyair 9y ago

'The prison contracts everything from security to mopping.' In the vast majority of American prisons, the prisoners do the mopping. Security is still done by guards, but nearly every other job in the prison is done by the offenders. It's much cheaper this way - for state prisons average starting wage for non-industrial jobs is $0.25/hr. Industrial jobs don't start much higher, but they tend to have a higher cap around $2.50/hr instead of the standard cap of $1.00/hr. There are a few cases of offenders making minimum wage, but these are the exception rather than the norm. Prisons are run by the offenders - it's cheaper this way.

zyx321 9y ago
And often times they can even sell the surplus labor, which is basically free money for the company operating the prison. (that they can then spend to lobby for harsher sentences)
usmeteora 9y ago
So where is the $75k cost to house them coming from? Clearly some contract is too expensive and something is not adding up. For that price, we should have Harvard classes taught at prisons, and maybe these inmates could have a shot at using their disparate lifestyle extremes to have new ways to employ/create new businesses that can improve society in areas where they see/experience/witness need for improvement, and put our tax payers to good work. If every prisoner is cooking mopping and doing whatever for free, where is the $75k/yr coming from?
- deweyair 9y ago
  According to the article, a big increase in California's state prison system is for salary and medical of the guards. I'm not sure if they're union guards over there, but the prison guard union is pretty powerful in the federal system and many states. As far as other costs go, I'm not sure where they're getting up to 75k/year/offender. My experience has been mostly in the federal and midwest, where average cost of housing an offender for a year in a low/medium security facility is around 20k-25k. It would be interesting to look at their books!

narrator 9y ago

I had a friend who lived in Bisbee, Arizona, which is a small town next to the border that has a big border patrol station in the city. He said that because of the border patrol presence there aren't any illegal aliens around to do construction. He could only get cheap labor from ex-convicts. It made me think that typically ex-cons have formed the lowest rung in the economic ladder that illegal aliens now fulfill.

thriftwy 9y ago
How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Yesterday people expected cheap construction labor, today they complain there's not enough cheap home nurses around. I wonder if they'll aim for cheap software development labor tomorrow. I wonder why I don't feel entitled to cheap caviar and cheap yachts?
- xor1 9y ago
  >How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Tell that to all of the companies that outsource manufacturing.
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    Outsource manufacturing is a slightly different case because the labor might not be 'cheap' in the offshore country. Offshore workers are often abused, but when they are not they might be paid a decent wage which is also peanuts when onsite wages are considered. You profit from arbitraging cost of living, not from exploitation. Even if we enforce unions at oursource locations with wage control, outsource manufacturing won't disappear overnight.
- jaggi1 9y ago
  > How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Sure! but will you rent a place that is $500 expensive while bringing no additional benefit other than it employed someone at higher wages ?

jondubois 9y ago

Yes the idea of having a criminal record is silly - It's a self-fulfilling label. Once you are labeled a criminal, it only makes it harder to get a job and give up crime. Besides, crime has become such an arbitrary thing. A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes but if a member of society physically steals something from a corporation, they'll go to jail. Why don't corporations like JP Morgan and their executives get a permanent criminal record when they are found guilty of criminal activity? Either it should be consistent for all or it should be abolished entirely.

shagie 9y ago
For a Spider-Man approach- https://imgur.com/gallery/gcrPf https://imgur.com/gallery/gcrPf There are a number of companies that exist with the intended purpose of providing jobs to ex convicts. The risk that a regular company takes, however, is one of "this individual has done XYZ when times were hard in the past. How can we be sure they won't again?" This is combined with that for many good paying jobs there are more applications than positions allowing for the "filter by felon" to be a not unreasonable first level filter for HR to apply.
webXL 9y ago
I mostly agree that the record makes it harder to get a job and give up crime, but what about the deterrence factor? How many more would commit crimes knowing that it wouldn't have any impact on their ability to get a decent job right after serving some time? > A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes Was it society's to begin with? And you can't completely pin the financial crisis on the likes of JP Morgan when the feds bailed them out with our tax dollars. That was the crime.
- derekp7 9y ago
  But is there really a deterrence factor? Most people don't commit crimes, due to a personal moral code. Those who have morals that don't get in the way of crime, just use the deterrence factor to find ways of not getting caught. Now what would really help, especially with recidivism, is to use the profit motive of prisons in a different way. First-time offenders-- the prison gets paid full price. If an offender returns to prison, the prison should get paid less, or not at all. That would encourage the private prison system to rehabilitate, and provide post-release re-integration assistance.