4 ms·

Remember when a small team built a better healthcare.gov? Why not open up well-regulated competitive markets for these kinds of problems? Let some bright peop

by mowenz 9y ago

Remember when a small team built a better healthcare.gov? Why not open up well-regulated competitive markets for these kinds of problems? Let some bright people solve them by going at them with their ingenuity. The fastest way towards progress is fair and honest competition. Government can regulate the market by setting the goals: low violence inside, low costs, low re-offences of released, high security, high educational opportunities

weberc2 9y ago
Oops, you're not supposed to say "market" here. Even if you qualify it with terms like "regulation", people assume you're an extremist libertarian out to ruin the country.
- dagenleg 9y ago
  You are indeed not supposed to say 'penal system' and 'market' in the same sentence. That's kind of amoral and ends up costing everyone - that is what all for-profit prisons successfully show.
  - weberc2 9y ago
    > That's kind of amoral I don't think anyone claimed it to be moral or immoral? > That is what all for-profit prisons successfully show Seems like this argument could be made for the socialization of virtually any institution. In particular, the OP's solution is different from existing for-profit penal institutions, so there is no logical reason to downvote the OP on the basis of existing institutions.
FullMtlAlcoholc 9y ago
> I think the best answer to these problems we face is competition. I'm sorry, but that is the worst answer. Perverse incentives and moral hazard problems not withstanding, incarceration as a market, profit from human misery and suffering is absolutely morally repugnant. > Remember when a small team built a better healthcare.gov? You're comparing apples to naked mole rats. Running a website (that does exactly what you tell it) is a wee bit different than caring for violent, mentally disabled, borderline personalities, sexually, mentally abusive and abused, etc. individuals. (I'm including a lot of the guards in this description too) > Businesses that get high marks automatically get more prisoners, ones that get low marks get none. > That's a lot worse than gov run facilities, but gov facilities are probably not as good as properly regulated market. Incarceration, and security in general, is the very definition of a market failure and one of the few things that a government needs to provide in the most liberal, laissez-faire economy Think about how this will play out in reality, considering that prison guard unions and companies wield a large amount of political capital and no one really cares about the welfare of prisoners, if they're being mistreated/abused, etc. Companies can cook their books and no one will care. We also live in the era where speech=money. Prison corporations spend large amounts of money lobbying. And they lobby for the sickest things possible: increases in sentences, increases in mandatory minimums, fighting against medical marijuana legalization just so they can imprison and profit off of "scary, criminal mastermind potheads" Our economics is so backwards that we include spending on prisons in our GDP. Growth in the prison sector should not be added as growth in the overall economy The market solution will not magically erase the culture of the prison economy or change its major players
- mowenz 9y ago
  Where we agree is that it is a dangerous place to open up to the market. If it's not well-regulated it could face these kinds of problems you mentioned, and others as well.
csmark 9y ago
Or just ship em off to Norway! https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/06/this-norwegian-prison-is-the-nicest-in-the-world/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/06/this-norwegian-prison...
coldtea 9y ago
>Remember when a small team built a better healthcare.gov? Why not open up well-regulated competitive markets for these kinds of problems? Because the solution ("making prison a market") is what caused the problem in the first place. And because some things, like treating people in prison humanely, you don't want to live to the lowest bidder (though even that would be an improvement over the worse than third world shithole that are us prisons).
- mowenz 9y ago
  There is actually no competitive market here. I agree there is a lot of danger in profiting from incarceration. However, it would be good if someone figured out how to solve the problem and a profit motive is a reliable way to do it. In other words, the profit motive would have to work towards eliminatin the problem--that's my point about a properly regulated market. Maybe some other users here are right and I am naive in thinking people will create fair and just rules that others wont try to cheat.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    The problem is that the prisoners are not the buyers, the taxpayers are. Which means any "profit motive" can (and normally will) work against them (the prisoners). After all feeding them crap and stuffing them in tiny cells is cheaper than giving them quality prison time and rehabilitation opportunities...
  - FullMtlAlcoholc 9y ago
    > Maybe some other users here are right and I am naive in thinking people will create fair and just rules that others wont try to cheat. There's just not a lot to gain and a lot that can go wrong. It's high risk, minimal rewards. Making prisons more rehabilitative isn't difficult or some unsolved problem. People in this country just have an appetite for righteous vengeance and ensuring that criminals receive their due suffering.

by mowenz 9y ago

weberc2 9y ago

Oops, you're not supposed to say "market" here. Even if you qualify it with terms like "regulation", people assume you're an extremist libertarian out to ruin the country.

dagenleg 9y ago
You are indeed not supposed to say 'penal system' and 'market' in the same sentence. That's kind of amoral and ends up costing everyone - that is what all for-profit prisons successfully show.
- weberc2 9y ago
  > That's kind of amoral I don't think anyone claimed it to be moral or immoral? > That is what all for-profit prisons successfully show Seems like this argument could be made for the socialization of virtually any institution. In particular, the OP's solution is different from existing for-profit penal institutions, so there is no logical reason to downvote the OP on the basis of existing institutions.

FullMtlAlcoholc 9y ago

> I think the best answer to these problems we face is competition. I'm sorry, but that is the worst answer. Perverse incentives and moral hazard problems not withstanding, incarceration as a market, profit from human misery and suffering is absolutely morally repugnant. > Remember when a small team built a better healthcare.gov? You're comparing apples to naked mole rats. Running a website (that does exactly what you tell it) is a wee bit different than caring for violent, mentally disabled, borderline personalities, sexually, mentally abusive and abused, etc. individuals. (I'm including a lot of the guards in this description too) > Businesses that get high marks automatically get more prisoners, ones that get low marks get none. > That's a lot worse than gov run facilities, but gov facilities are probably not as good as properly regulated market. Incarceration, and security in general, is the very definition of a market failure and one of the few things that a government needs to provide in the most liberal, laissez-faire economy Think about how this will play out in reality, considering that prison guard unions and companies wield a large amount of political capital and no one really cares about the welfare of prisoners, if they're being mistreated/abused, etc. Companies can cook their books and no one will care. We also live in the era where speech=money. Prison corporations spend large amounts of money lobbying. And they lobby for the sickest things possible: increases in sentences, increases in mandatory minimums, fighting against medical marijuana legalization just so they can imprison and profit off of "scary, criminal mastermind potheads" Our economics is so backwards that we include spending on prisons in our GDP. Growth in the prison sector should not be added as growth in the overall economy The market solution will not magically erase the culture of the prison economy or change its major players

mowenz 9y ago
Where we agree is that it is a dangerous place to open up to the market. If it's not well-regulated it could face these kinds of problems you mentioned, and others as well.

csmark 9y ago

Or just ship em off to Norway! https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/06/this-norwegian-prison-is-the-nicest-in-the-world/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/06/this-norwegian-prison...

coldtea 9y ago

>Remember when a small team built a better healthcare.gov? Why not open up well-regulated competitive markets for these kinds of problems? Because the solution ("making prison a market") is what caused the problem in the first place. And because some things, like treating people in prison humanely, you don't want to live to the lowest bidder (though even that would be an improvement over the worse than third world shithole that are us prisons).

mowenz 9y ago
There is actually no competitive market here. I agree there is a lot of danger in profiting from incarceration. However, it would be good if someone figured out how to solve the problem and a profit motive is a reliable way to do it. In other words, the profit motive would have to work towards eliminatin the problem--that's my point about a properly regulated market. Maybe some other users here are right and I am naive in thinking people will create fair and just rules that others wont try to cheat.
- coldtea 9y ago
  The problem is that the prisoners are not the buyers, the taxpayers are. Which means any "profit motive" can (and normally will) work against them (the prisoners). After all feeding them crap and stuffing them in tiny cells is cheaper than giving them quality prison time and rehabilitation opportunities...
- FullMtlAlcoholc 9y ago
  > Maybe some other users here are right and I am naive in thinking people will create fair and just rules that others wont try to cheat. There's just not a lot to gain and a lot that can go wrong. It's high risk, minimal rewards. Making prisons more rehabilitative isn't difficult or some unsolved problem. People in this country just have an appetite for righteous vengeance and ensuring that criminals receive their due suffering.