7 ms·

I don't really get the reference to ping pong tables and free beer...? Is it a metaphor, or is the commenter literally referring to those things? I've worked

I don't really get the reference to ping pong tables and free beer...? Is it a metaphor, or is the commenter literally referring to those things? I've worked in a range of places * Investment bank - German, very formal, very little perks * Options Trading Company - Dutch, laid-back, casual dress, free alcohol, free food, lots of games, lots of perks * Database Company - Tech startup, fairly well funded, casual dress, alcohol and some games (e.g pool). - medium perks * Search Engine Company (Current) - Tech, well funded, casual dress, free food, games and consoles everywhere - lots of perks I don't drink alcohol - and I don't really play ping pong or pool. And I don't play console games. But if I interview at a place and saw those things around, I'm not really sure I'd hold it against the place. I mean, sure, other people can enjoy them, and I won't. As long as they provide some things I want, that's cool with me. It sounds like a lot of what the commenter wants/desires are personal preferences, as opposed to gender things. What's to say a girl can't enjoy beer? Or ping pong? (I studied engineering in uni - and there were girls there who could drink most guys under the table.) I mean, I don't want/enjoy some of those things - but I'm not a woman. Sure, you get the occasional stupid comment from some guy when you order a cranberry juice at a work function instead of drinking beer like the "bros" - but that's happened what, once in 7 years? And I suspect (and took it) as more an off-key joke than anything malicious.

wpietri 9y ago
You have generated quite a bit of opinion given that you start out admitting you don't even understand the discussion and are not part of the group being asked for opinions. There are good reasons to be suspicious of companies who push hard on the "we're so fun!" angle. It can be a warning sign of any or all of: chaotic management, chaotic development practices, a work-all-the-time culture, a culture that's not family friendly, a bro-y culture, or relatively immature employee base. (It can also be just fine.) Alcohol use can be especially problematic. Sometimes it's fine, and sometimes it's a sign of one of the things I mention above. But even when it doesn't indicate a systemic problem, in male-dominated environments it increases risk for women. See, for example, the Geek Feminism entry on having alcohol at conventions: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Higher_risk_activities#Events_where_delegates_are_intoxicated http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassmen... I've personally heard a number of horror stories from women in tech about getting sexually harassed at off-sites with alcohol. So yeah, your not understanding why these things could be a problem is not a good indicator that they are not actually a problem.
- victorhooi 9y ago
  My first point was that this isn't gender specific. My example was - I don't touch alcohol, I don't like ping pong, or consoles, or any of the things that people hold up as "bro" culture. But nor am I going to hold it against a workplace if they want to offer those things. It's not a negative - it's just a thing. For example - nursing rooms for mothers, or Muslim prayer rooms. I may not use them personally, but I don't see why it's a negative if they're there. My second point - I have worked in a whole range of companies, from formal to very casual - and for me this is much of a muchness. To your points. You claim that we should be suspicious of companies that push "we're so fun". I don't see why it's a warning sign, any more than a workplace that pushes the "we're so formal" is a warning sign. You need to make your own judgement, based on actually interviewing there and interacting with people - and more importantly, one that fits your own ethos and preference. Some people like formal cultures, some people like more jovial cultures - we shouldn't box them as gender specific, but just something that is unique to each person. Alcohol likewise - that seems a personal issue, as opposed to something gender specific, or a company directive. Like I said - I've worked in banking, and trust me, there's a drinking culture (among other vices...). But really, it's a matter of self-control. I never once felt forced to engage in that behaviour if I didn't want to. Perhaps I picked a good firm, or just had good mates. My point is - whether there's alcohol available or not is a red herring. And I don't think alcohol is somehow specifically a male thing - once again, I believe it's a personal self-control thing. I don't drink alcohol - but if somebody is drunk, whether they're a guy or a girl - or whether the gender ratio at my workplace is 60:40 or 80:20 is irrelevant. They are drunk. I'm certainly not going to say - "Oh you're a women but you're drunk...well, that's OK then". Although to be honest, if you're drunk and not causing me any harm, meh. Gender or alcohol isn't a shield to cover your behaviour - and that flows both ways.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    > I don't drink alcohol - but if somebody is drunk, whether they're a guy or a girl - or whether the gender ratio at my workplace is 60:40 or 80:20 is irrelevant. They are drunk. I'm certainly not going to say - "Oh you're a women but you're drunk...well, that's OK then". Although to be honest, if you're drunk and not causing me any harm, meh. You might want to talk to women about their experiences of drunk men.
watwut 9y ago
Yes, I mean it as a metaphor. I do enjoy beer and video games personally and absolutely don't mind a group of colleagues going for beer if they like. Because then it is a group of colleagues out of many not company culture. I wont investigate the fridge during interview for stocked bottle. It is when the beer and pong come up as larger point during interview, when hiring manager brags about non-work oriented things whole company does together often. If they went the diversity by cringy art way and bragged about common coloring sessions, I would run away too. It suggests a couple of things: a.) Less meritocracy - whether you appear as good programmer while you play that ping pong matters more then your code and responsibility. So it is signaling and charming game where I am at disadvantage. Also in worst case, in case you are good looking and succeed, such culture makes it too easy to assume/imply behind your back that you got position because of being sexy. b.) It suggest that people with different personality types left. E.g. they might have different genders and races, but they are still kinda clones of each other. c.) I hate having to stay overtime or during weekend because basically there was 4 hours long ping pong match at Wednesday and that is when CEO shares requirements, what (s)he learned from customer last time he visited and when design is discussed. I strongly prefer one hour long meeting about the above and then going to work and after work everybody does his thing (which may include ping pong). d.) True story, I found it unfair when a dude was seen as hard worker because he spend 12 hours a day at work - except that he spent majority of time attempting to charm lady at reception and otherwise socializing.
- exelius 9y ago
  Yes! Time spent at the office != time spent working. I often have to retrain my employees because I'm gone by 6 and idgaf if you stay later, but if something is due by end of day, that means I need to have it by 5 to review. Not 11 because you procrastinated and spent all day swiping tinder. Working late should be a badge of shame. And I make sure my employees know that expectations are not lower as a result.
losteverything 9y ago
< What's to say a girl can't enjoy beer? "Girl's" are females under the age of 18. To my learning, use of girls to not mean girls is incorrect speech and should be avoided. Use woman or female.
- TACIXAT 9y ago
  It's not incorrect, it's just diminutive and can be insulting in a professional setting. Going out with the girls and having a drink with my boys are perfectly fine things to say when referring to your friends. Similar to how bro is thrown around, you wouldn't describe your colleague that way.
- ForRealsies 9y ago
  Flo Rida's 'Where Them Girls At' will leave you disturbed then.
dang 9y ago
The problem with your comments in this thread (along with several other users' comments) is that they take the discussion in a generic direction, which makes it less interesting. The topic is about women because the question was about women, and there's a lot to discuss about that. The best parts of this thread have clearly been the answers from women about their concrete experience. Perhaps the most interesting thing is the wide range of experiences and perspectives they show. Subtly changing the subject by negating that bit—the one bit that makes the topic specific—worsens the thread, first by genericizing it, which always lowers discussion quality, and then by provoking other users who care about the original topic, resulting in yet another flamewar that we can all do well to avoid. Think about it this way: you basically changed the subject to yourself when the question wasn't about you (and you were far from the only user who did this). We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14491171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14491171 and marked it off-topic.

wpietri 9y ago

You have generated quite a bit of opinion given that you start out admitting you don't even understand the discussion and are not part of the group being asked for opinions. There are good reasons to be suspicious of companies who push hard on the "we're so fun!" angle. It can be a warning sign of any or all of: chaotic management, chaotic development practices, a work-all-the-time culture, a culture that's not family friendly, a bro-y culture, or relatively immature employee base. (It can also be just fine.) Alcohol use can be especially problematic. Sometimes it's fine, and sometimes it's a sign of one of the things I mention above. But even when it doesn't indicate a systemic problem, in male-dominated environments it increases risk for women. See, for example, the Geek Feminism entry on having alcohol at conventions: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Higher_risk_activities#Events_where_delegates_are_intoxicated http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassmen... I've personally heard a number of horror stories from women in tech about getting sexually harassed at off-sites with alcohol. So yeah, your not understanding why these things could be a problem is not a good indicator that they are not actually a problem.

victorhooi 9y ago
My first point was that this isn't gender specific. My example was - I don't touch alcohol, I don't like ping pong, or consoles, or any of the things that people hold up as "bro" culture. But nor am I going to hold it against a workplace if they want to offer those things. It's not a negative - it's just a thing. For example - nursing rooms for mothers, or Muslim prayer rooms. I may not use them personally, but I don't see why it's a negative if they're there. My second point - I have worked in a whole range of companies, from formal to very casual - and for me this is much of a muchness. To your points. You claim that we should be suspicious of companies that push "we're so fun". I don't see why it's a warning sign, any more than a workplace that pushes the "we're so formal" is a warning sign. You need to make your own judgement, based on actually interviewing there and interacting with people - and more importantly, one that fits your own ethos and preference. Some people like formal cultures, some people like more jovial cultures - we shouldn't box them as gender specific, but just something that is unique to each person. Alcohol likewise - that seems a personal issue, as opposed to something gender specific, or a company directive. Like I said - I've worked in banking, and trust me, there's a drinking culture (among other vices...). But really, it's a matter of self-control. I never once felt forced to engage in that behaviour if I didn't want to. Perhaps I picked a good firm, or just had good mates. My point is - whether there's alcohol available or not is a red herring. And I don't think alcohol is somehow specifically a male thing - once again, I believe it's a personal self-control thing. I don't drink alcohol - but if somebody is drunk, whether they're a guy or a girl - or whether the gender ratio at my workplace is 60:40 or 80:20 is irrelevant. They are drunk. I'm certainly not going to say - "Oh you're a women but you're drunk...well, that's OK then". Although to be honest, if you're drunk and not causing me any harm, meh. Gender or alcohol isn't a shield to cover your behaviour - and that flows both ways.
- DanBC 9y ago
  > I don't drink alcohol - but if somebody is drunk, whether they're a guy or a girl - or whether the gender ratio at my workplace is 60:40 or 80:20 is irrelevant. They are drunk. I'm certainly not going to say - "Oh you're a women but you're drunk...well, that's OK then". Although to be honest, if you're drunk and not causing me any harm, meh. You might want to talk to women about their experiences of drunk men.

watwut 9y ago

Yes, I mean it as a metaphor. I do enjoy beer and video games personally and absolutely don't mind a group of colleagues going for beer if they like. Because then it is a group of colleagues out of many not company culture. I wont investigate the fridge during interview for stocked bottle. It is when the beer and pong come up as larger point during interview, when hiring manager brags about non-work oriented things whole company does together often. If they went the diversity by cringy art way and bragged about common coloring sessions, I would run away too. It suggests a couple of things: a.) Less meritocracy - whether you appear as good programmer while you play that ping pong matters more then your code and responsibility. So it is signaling and charming game where I am at disadvantage. Also in worst case, in case you are good looking and succeed, such culture makes it too easy to assume/imply behind your back that you got position because of being sexy. b.) It suggest that people with different personality types left. E.g. they might have different genders and races, but they are still kinda clones of each other. c.) I hate having to stay overtime or during weekend because basically there was 4 hours long ping pong match at Wednesday and that is when CEO shares requirements, what (s)he learned from customer last time he visited and when design is discussed. I strongly prefer one hour long meeting about the above and then going to work and after work everybody does his thing (which may include ping pong). d.) True story, I found it unfair when a dude was seen as hard worker because he spend 12 hours a day at work - except that he spent majority of time attempting to charm lady at reception and otherwise socializing.

exelius 9y ago
Yes! Time spent at the office != time spent working. I often have to retrain my employees because I'm gone by 6 and idgaf if you stay later, but if something is due by end of day, that means I need to have it by 5 to review. Not 11 because you procrastinated and spent all day swiping tinder. Working late should be a badge of shame. And I make sure my employees know that expectations are not lower as a result.

losteverything 9y ago

< What's to say a girl can't enjoy beer? "Girl's" are females under the age of 18. To my learning, use of girls to not mean girls is incorrect speech and should be avoided. Use woman or female.

TACIXAT 9y ago
It's not incorrect, it's just diminutive and can be insulting in a professional setting. Going out with the girls and having a drink with my boys are perfectly fine things to say when referring to your friends. Similar to how bro is thrown around, you wouldn't describe your colleague that way.
ForRealsies 9y ago
Flo Rida's 'Where Them Girls At' will leave you disturbed then.

dang 9y ago

The problem with your comments in this thread (along with several other users' comments) is that they take the discussion in a generic direction, which makes it less interesting. The topic is about women because the question was about women, and there's a lot to discuss about that. The best parts of this thread have clearly been the answers from women about their concrete experience. Perhaps the most interesting thing is the wide range of experiences and perspectives they show. Subtly changing the subject by negating that bit—the one bit that makes the topic specific—worsens the thread, first by genericizing it, which always lowers discussion quality, and then by provoking other users who care about the original topic, resulting in yet another flamewar that we can all do well to avoid. Think about it this way: you basically changed the subject to yourself when the question wasn't about you (and you were far from the only user who did this). We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14491171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14491171 and marked it off-topic.