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Let me be explicit: racists and sexists should find it impossible to maintain a social and professional life, until they stop being racist and sexist. In other

Let me be explicit: racists and sexists should find it impossible to maintain a social and professional life, until they stop being racist and sexist. In other words: People you very strongly disagree with should find it impossible to maintain a social and professional life, until they stop disagreeing with you. For a society that values consensuality and freedom, this is shortsighted and naively self-centered thinking. Who in the world are you to judge? For much of the 20th century, the majority in supposedly "enlightened" societies prosecuted such a program against homosexuals. Many people doing this even thought to themselves that it was alright, because it was a choice -- just as I've read you advocate about other people's personal philosophy and political thought. That's not a violent action, that's a highly effective non-violent action. The human instinct around exclusion from a group is very strong. In prehistoric days, exclusion from the group was tantamount to a sentence of slow, lingering death. For this reason, when a group of people crosses the moral line of using such coercive tactics to enforce their will on another group, they are very close to the parallel moral line involving violence. Freedom is consensuality. Consensuality can clearly be violated through power and social/emotional pressures that fall short of physical violence. A social/political movement that seeks to enforce its will against those it labels as "wrong thinkers" does not truly believe in consensuality. Throughout history, such actions are only "highly effective" in contexts where there is effectively absolute political power, and even then, the authorities must escalate even beyond violence to assert their will. Short of that, we know from history that coercion always produces backlash. If you are truly on the side of justice, then you will eschew all forms of injustice, even when they are supposedly for the good. If you are truly for consensuality, then you should strive to convince your political opponents. It's not for me to know one way or another, but if you have devolved to the point where you have given up convincing, and only want to ostracize and shame them, then everything I know about human nature suggests to me that you are in danger of dehumanizing others in your heart and placing yourself above them. Historically, anyone who gets to that point has made the same mistake in their heart has become an opponent of social justice. It is exactly this mistake that was made against homosexuals, jewish people, and black people in the 20th century US. (Note the specificity of context/location when formulating your response.)

JoshTriplett 9y ago
> In other words: People you very strongly disagree with Those are certainly "other words", but ones that present an entirely incorrect picture of the post you're responding to. In summary: it's not in any way hypocrisy to treat people and actions that harm others differently than people and actions that don't. And it's a really common derailing tactic to equate the two, and try to treat both as similarly "oppressed groups". (It's also a tactic that tends to produce arguments that sound quite appealing in the abstract, especially if you're of a mind to seek broader patterns and categories, which is not an uncommon trait here.) I'll also note, in brief, that I'm not advocating a zero-nuance policy of immediate exclusion for the slightest offense. That's not a supportable position, and certainly not the one I hold. I do, however, consider exclusion a perfectly reasonable approach for maintaining more pleasant, welcoming communities. And it's not the job of every such community to put up with people who would make it worse, or to attempt to correct such people.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  it's not in any way hypocrisy to treat people and actions that harm For one who decries false equivalence of equating some non-violent action to violence, I find your application of "harm" here a real stretch, and a bit hypocritical besides! I'll also note, in brief, that I'm not advocating a zero-nuance policy of immediate exclusion for the slightest offense. That's not a supportable position, and certainly not the one I hold. I do, however, consider exclusion a perfectly reasonable approach for maintaining more pleasant, welcoming communities. And it's not the job of every such community to put up with people who would make it worse, or to attempt to correct such people. I wonder if you're the sort of person who would advocate that a non-political group make a political statement, then make everyone sign or make some sort of pledge in support of it and throw out those who don't. Such behavior called a perfectly reasonable approach for maintaining more pleasant, welcoming communities is every bit as hypocritical as and toxic as 80's frat boys doing the enforced-fun aggression, questioning your sexuality, then gay bashing you if your answer doesn't satisfy them. You talk elsewhere about being too abstract. The chief emotional dishonesty here in our blue tribe, is the degree to which hate and emotional aggression actually rule the tribal, othering behaviors. I've been racially harassed to the point where police had to get involved. The epiphany that I had sometime afterwards, was that there was a real joy, real glee to those "poor white trash" kids. In their minds, I'm quite sure, that they were making the world a better, more "real" and beautiful place, at least for the "real" people. Now I look over at others on the left, and I see essentially the same thing. Have you dehumanized others in your mind, in your heart of hearts?

JoshTriplett 9y ago

> In other words: People you very strongly disagree with Those are certainly "other words", but ones that present an entirely incorrect picture of the post you're responding to. In summary: it's not in any way hypocrisy to treat people and actions that harm others differently than people and actions that don't. And it's a really common derailing tactic to equate the two, and try to treat both as similarly "oppressed groups". (It's also a tactic that tends to produce arguments that sound quite appealing in the abstract, especially if you're of a mind to seek broader patterns and categories, which is not an uncommon trait here.) I'll also note, in brief, that I'm not advocating a zero-nuance policy of immediate exclusion for the slightest offense. That's not a supportable position, and certainly not the one I hold. I do, however, consider exclusion a perfectly reasonable approach for maintaining more pleasant, welcoming communities. And it's not the job of every such community to put up with people who would make it worse, or to attempt to correct such people.

stcredzero 9y ago
it's not in any way hypocrisy to treat people and actions that harm For one who decries false equivalence of equating some non-violent action to violence, I find your application of "harm" here a real stretch, and a bit hypocritical besides! I'll also note, in brief, that I'm not advocating a zero-nuance policy of immediate exclusion for the slightest offense. That's not a supportable position, and certainly not the one I hold. I do, however, consider exclusion a perfectly reasonable approach for maintaining more pleasant, welcoming communities. And it's not the job of every such community to put up with people who would make it worse, or to attempt to correct such people. I wonder if you're the sort of person who would advocate that a non-political group make a political statement, then make everyone sign or make some sort of pledge in support of it and throw out those who don't. Such behavior called a perfectly reasonable approach for maintaining more pleasant, welcoming communities is every bit as hypocritical as and toxic as 80's frat boys doing the enforced-fun aggression, questioning your sexuality, then gay bashing you if your answer doesn't satisfy them. You talk elsewhere about being too abstract. The chief emotional dishonesty here in our blue tribe, is the degree to which hate and emotional aggression actually rule the tribal, othering behaviors. I've been racially harassed to the point where police had to get involved. The epiphany that I had sometime afterwards, was that there was a real joy, real glee to those "poor white trash" kids. In their minds, I'm quite sure, that they were making the world a better, more "real" and beautiful place, at least for the "real" people. Now I look over at others on the left, and I see essentially the same thing. Have you dehumanized others in your mind, in your heart of hearts?