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"toxicity" is often a matter of perspective. But it's never alright to inhibit the world flow. If that inhibition is racism, sexism, alcohol, crude jokes, or (

"toxicity" is often a matter of perspective. But it's never alright to inhibit the world flow. If that inhibition is racism, sexism, alcohol, crude jokes, or (on the other hand) creating drama and magnifying issues it's all no good. And the law has to be followed. And if you are decent person at whatever level you are you don't annoy others around you at work. And if you are a wise manager you don't allow annoyances, not because you are a good person but because it inhibits the work flow. It sounds to me maybe more like you are looking for a workplace that suits you. And pays well. Which is cool, I hope you find it. It's all what we want and not many of us get. But just because it's a lot of white dudes with beer and ping pong table doesn't intrinsically mean "toxic". Any more than ladies who say "shit" at work or talk down "bros" is toxic. It's just various levels of annoyance and what we like to be around and who we can jive with as a team. And it varies. So I'm not sure there is a right answer but check things out and see how you feel, because what you find "toxic" others might find delicious.

roguecoder 9y ago
lol at "creating drama and magnifying issues" being just as bad as racism and sexism, and also somehow "on the other hand". Groups I've worked in that are all dudes are the most f'king dramatic I've been involved in. No meeting I've been in with multiple women has ever descended into a screaming match. I fully admit women may be just as capable of being dramatic ego-driven shits as men, and my sample size is just too small, but your dichotomy is dumb. Besides, "magnifying issues" is a key component of kanban. If you aren't welcome to magnify issues, the culture is probably going to deevolve over time.
- mythrwy 9y ago
  It's not a dichotomy though. People often do multiples of the above at the same time. And as you mention, drama or being racist isn't a property of sex. Which is worse? That is a personal value judgement. But from the perspective of a functional workplace, neither is desirable. People sometimes forget why we go to work. It isn't for a moral crusade. It's to do work and hopefully make some money. Anything that screws with that is bad for the workplace. That's the bottom line right here in the real world.
  - roguecoder 9y ago
    My point was that "magnifying issues" is desirable. Fixing issues can't happen unless they are raised. All the teams I work on have weekly retros specifically to magnify issues, and especially to identify issues that might seem too minor to be worth the effort of raising. That is how you can address problems that affect many people a little bit, or that would grow into major problems eventually. Additionally the process of being heard and having people care about your experience builds team camaraderie and cultivates the atmosphere of respect and collaboration I find most productive. Improvement of culture and process only comes when we're willing to listen to people and take their concerns seriously. Being dismissive of things that bother people is a great way to lose engineers, and also design really shitty products.
    - mythrwy 9y ago
      Magnifying issues beyond the potential cost of the issue isn't a good idea. Do it too much and you become a disturbance. Disturbance isn't good. It's a big part of the reason why (aside from legal issues and employee retention) we don't want racism or sexual harassment in a workplace. It causes disturbances. Not because Moses came down from the mountain and said these things are evil.

roguecoder 9y ago

lol at "creating drama and magnifying issues" being just as bad as racism and sexism, and also somehow "on the other hand". Groups I've worked in that are all dudes are the most f'king dramatic I've been involved in. No meeting I've been in with multiple women has ever descended into a screaming match. I fully admit women may be just as capable of being dramatic ego-driven shits as men, and my sample size is just too small, but your dichotomy is dumb. Besides, "magnifying issues" is a key component of kanban. If you aren't welcome to magnify issues, the culture is probably going to deevolve over time.

mythrwy 9y ago
It's not a dichotomy though. People often do multiples of the above at the same time. And as you mention, drama or being racist isn't a property of sex. Which is worse? That is a personal value judgement. But from the perspective of a functional workplace, neither is desirable. People sometimes forget why we go to work. It isn't for a moral crusade. It's to do work and hopefully make some money. Anything that screws with that is bad for the workplace. That's the bottom line right here in the real world.
- roguecoder 9y ago
  My point was that "magnifying issues" is desirable. Fixing issues can't happen unless they are raised. All the teams I work on have weekly retros specifically to magnify issues, and especially to identify issues that might seem too minor to be worth the effort of raising. That is how you can address problems that affect many people a little bit, or that would grow into major problems eventually. Additionally the process of being heard and having people care about your experience builds team camaraderie and cultivates the atmosphere of respect and collaboration I find most productive. Improvement of culture and process only comes when we're willing to listen to people and take their concerns seriously. Being dismissive of things that bother people is a great way to lose engineers, and also design really shitty products.
  - mythrwy 9y ago
    Magnifying issues beyond the potential cost of the issue isn't a good idea. Do it too much and you become a disturbance. Disturbance isn't good. It's a big part of the reason why (aside from legal issues and employee retention) we don't want racism or sexual harassment in a workplace. It causes disturbances. Not because Moses came down from the mountain and said these things are evil.