6 ms·

The part about ping pong and beer vs a more formal workplace is really interesting. I've been reading more about this lately. One story that struck me was abo

by geebee 9y ago

The part about ping pong and beer vs a more formal workplace is really interesting. I've been reading more about this lately. One story that struck me was about a journalist whose newspaper was purchased by a tech company, and the culture changed. She went from having a private office to working in a huge, open office environment. I'm putting this together from memory, but I remember her talking about how strange it felt to have so many people able to see her screen, not knowing where to put her bag if she wasn't at her desk watching it, and having to take it with her to the bathroom (feeling somewhat self conscious about how her more frequent trips appeared to her younger, generally male coworkers). I'm starting to think that there's something more insidious going on with an almost aggressively enforced "open office" culture in high tech. I also think tech is starting - but just barely - to wake up to the the value of the formality that we discarded and disdained. I'm really mainly interested in hearing more from you on this, if you're interested in writing more about it.

rayiner 9y ago
My wife's in law rather than tech, but she's commented many times about how much she appreciates the formality and process in law firms. E.g. when there's no pressure to socialize with coworkers, nobody has occasion to know that you're a mom with a kid. And your supervising partner may not even be in the same office as you, in which case you're a basically genderless entity represented by an email address and your work product.
- mrout 9y ago
  No pressure to socialise with coworkers? What kind of law firm is this? Lawyers are by a huge margin the most social people I know. I know a lot of lawyers, and not one of them doesn't go out for social drinks on a Friday at 430...
  - grageth 9y ago
    I think that is very different to the "Tech Happy Hour" and what feels like contrived events you see in "open office, culture (or people?) first" tech world. I have found, personally, that I formed more authentic relationships in those "stuffy", "formal" settings. Because you know what. When I go out on a Friday with my work mates, it's because I like them. Not because when I don't I'm viewed as anti-social or stuck up. I'm a lot of fun. Just don't force it down my throat or I'll give you the middle finger and show you just how unfun I can be.
tzs 9y ago
> [...] and having to take it with her to the bathroom (feeling somewhat self conscious about how her more frequent trips appeared to her younger, generally male coworkers) Get one of these kitchen timers [1]. Set it to about 25 minutes. When it goes off get up from your desk and spend a few minutes walking around the office. Return to your desk, reset the timer, and go to prior step. When you wish to visit the bathroom do so on one of your strolls around the office. Coworkers will ask what you are doing (this is one of the reasons to use a physical timer instead of something running on your computer...it will be noticeable). Here are three reasonable explanations for why you go on a stroll around the office every 25 minutes or so. 1. It is unhealthy to sit for extended periods. If you get up and move around every 25 or 30 minutes or so most of the bad effects of sitting can be eliminated or greatly reduced [2]. 2. When solving problems it is best to have a mix of "focused mode" and "diffuse mode" thinking. Get into focused mode and then when the timer goes off you can take a break and let diffuse mode take over. That walk around the office is perfect for some diffuse mode thinking. There is much more about this in the "Learning How To Learn" course available at Coursera. 3. There is a time management technique called the Pomodoro Technique [3] built around breaking tasks into 25 minute chunks paced using a timer. Once people see you doing this I'd not be surprised if several other coworkers start doing the same. Reason #1 alone will get a lot of people. Once several people are doing this no one will have any idea how often you visit the bathroom (well, except for those people whose can see the bathroom from their desks). And as a side effect you'll have better health and productivity. [1] https://www.amazon.com/60-Minute-Kitcher-Timer-Tomato/dp/B00EEUHJHO/ https://www.amazon.com/60-Minute-Kitcher-Timer-Tomato/dp/B00... [2] http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/cuesitstand.html http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/cuesitstand.html [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomodoro_Technique https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomodoro_Technique
- maccard 9y ago
  If I had someone sitting in an open office with one of those tomatos ticking all day, and buzzing every 30 minutes I'd punch them. By all means, do a pomodoro, but don't use a ticking, vibrating noisy kitchen clock.
  - xj9 9y ago
ameister14 9y ago
I really don't think it's insidious - the negative effects are obvious. The issue is that open offices are cheaper and you can put a lot more people per square foot in them. They also often look visually more appealing.
juliangoldsmith 9y ago
>I'm starting to think that there's something more insidious going on with an almost aggressively enforced "open office" culture in high tech. Hanlon's razor is useful here. The most likely reason for open offices isn't because of discrimination; it's simply cheaper to pack everyone in a single room than to give everyone a space of their own.
- JKCalhoun 9y ago
  Yes, but it's a good point nonetheless — perhaps "unintended consequence" is a better description than "insidious".
tomc1985 9y ago
Ugh. Why must things always coalesce at one end of an extreme or another? Formality is bad. It is another layer of separation between you and the work. Way back when the original meaning of 'informal' simply meant your employer didn't care about non-work-related stuff like attire -- but its morphed into a culture of its own, destroyed perceptions towards those who really are results-oriented, and sent a lot of people down this path thinking formal is better. A lot of don't want suits at our workplace, but neither do we want ping-pong tables, or even beer (gasp!). We want to be left alone to do our work so we can go home on time and live a happy life. I think we can thank business-management types, this obnoxious brogrammer culture, and all the not-really-a-computer-nerd-but-I-learned-to-code hacks for the culture we have now. Leave it to the muggles to ruin everything... sigh
- thread_id 9y ago
  Could not have stated it better!!
- speedplane 9y ago
  Formality is bad because it locks people into a restrictive environment, but it's good because the rules are clear to all who are playing the game. Ideally, we would have clear rules that are not restrictive, but those are very difficult rules to come up with.
- srbl 9y ago
  I think you should re-examine the notion that toxic workplaces in tech (particularly w/r/t sexism) result from forces entirely unrelated to the behavior of "actual" computer nerds.
- grageth 9y ago
  So well said. Personally, I can't stand beer. Just give me anything that tastes good on ice and I'm happy. It's so interesting seeing you state the not-really-a-nerd thing. I am a true nerd that was coding at 11 in QBasic, but at the same time I played rugby and partied hard with my friends. The laughable thing is that I worked with my first female programmer in 1999 and to this day believe she was one of the best programmers I ever worked with. I'm willing to bet she never thought of us as a bunch of "brogrammers". And I worked for a company owned by ultra-conservative Afrikaans South Africans. She was just another programmer like the rest of us that worked hard and got shit done. We all got paid on merit there and I don't think gender ever entered the equation. But then this wasn't in America and I've come to understand and accept that America is about ceremony over authenticity. I see it in everywhere in the culture. Ceremony and labels. Oooooh American's love their labels. Let me label you and put you in a box, then I understand you, then I know how to treat you in a "politically correct" way. I grew up in South Africa while apartheid was still in effect. I was privileged enough to see it break down and Mandela elected president during high school. Maybe I just kid myself but, personally, I've always just seen each person as an individual and rather got to know them before branding them based on gender, race, religion or what not. Or maybe the drugs were just good and I loved everyone...
Ntrails 9y ago
> not knowing where to put her bag if she wasn't at her desk watching it, and having to take it with her to the bathroom I find this bizarre - what do you think the people you work with are going to rob you or go through your stuff? I seem to recall one place had a couple of iphones nicked off desks once by someone who'd managed to shoulder surf inside but I mean of all the complaints that's an odd one to me
- DanBC 9y ago
  Some women keep tampons or pads in their bags, and don't want to rummage through their bags to retrieve the tampon or pad before visiting the bathroom.
- erroneousfunk 9y ago
  Yeah, I've worked in many offices of various sizes and have never been worried about my stuff being stolen. I tend to be a little more relaxed about the fear of theft than most, but the office seems like a fairly safe place.
TACIXAT 9y ago
Why is everyone concerned with how often they piss? I drink 3-4 liters of water a day and take many bathroom breaks. Who cares? Everyone does it. I think it's more concerning that people aren't drinking enough water.
- redwood 9y ago
  Funny you say that. So many men in tech cos often means lines at the men's room. So it's a time sync. Smart phones do alleviate

by geebee 9y ago

rayiner 9y ago

My wife's in law rather than tech, but she's commented many times about how much she appreciates the formality and process in law firms. E.g. when there's no pressure to socialize with coworkers, nobody has occasion to know that you're a mom with a kid. And your supervising partner may not even be in the same office as you, in which case you're a basically genderless entity represented by an email address and your work product.

mrout 9y ago
No pressure to socialise with coworkers? What kind of law firm is this? Lawyers are by a huge margin the most social people I know. I know a lot of lawyers, and not one of them doesn't go out for social drinks on a Friday at 430...
- grageth 9y ago
  I think that is very different to the "Tech Happy Hour" and what feels like contrived events you see in "open office, culture (or people?) first" tech world. I have found, personally, that I formed more authentic relationships in those "stuffy", "formal" settings. Because you know what. When I go out on a Friday with my work mates, it's because I like them. Not because when I don't I'm viewed as anti-social or stuck up. I'm a lot of fun. Just don't force it down my throat or I'll give you the middle finger and show you just how unfun I can be.

tzs 9y ago

> [...] and having to take it with her to the bathroom (feeling somewhat self conscious about how her more frequent trips appeared to her younger, generally male coworkers) Get one of these kitchen timers [1]. Set it to about 25 minutes. When it goes off get up from your desk and spend a few minutes walking around the office. Return to your desk, reset the timer, and go to prior step. When you wish to visit the bathroom do so on one of your strolls around the office. Coworkers will ask what you are doing (this is one of the reasons to use a physical timer instead of something running on your computer...it will be noticeable). Here are three reasonable explanations for why you go on a stroll around the office every 25 minutes or so. 1. It is unhealthy to sit for extended periods. If you get up and move around every 25 or 30 minutes or so most of the bad effects of sitting can be eliminated or greatly reduced [2]. 2. When solving problems it is best to have a mix of "focused mode" and "diffuse mode" thinking. Get into focused mode and then when the timer goes off you can take a break and let diffuse mode take over. That walk around the office is perfect for some diffuse mode thinking. There is much more about this in the "Learning How To Learn" course available at Coursera. 3. There is a time management technique called the Pomodoro Technique [3] built around breaking tasks into 25 minute chunks paced using a timer. Once people see you doing this I'd not be surprised if several other coworkers start doing the same. Reason #1 alone will get a lot of people. Once several people are doing this no one will have any idea how often you visit the bathroom (well, except for those people whose can see the bathroom from their desks). And as a side effect you'll have better health and productivity. [1] https://www.amazon.com/60-Minute-Kitcher-Timer-Tomato/dp/B00EEUHJHO/ https://www.amazon.com/60-Minute-Kitcher-Timer-Tomato/dp/B00... [2] http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/cuesitstand.html http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/cuesitstand.html [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomodoro_Technique https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomodoro_Technique

maccard 9y ago
If I had someone sitting in an open office with one of those tomatos ticking all day, and buzzing every 30 minutes I'd punch them. By all means, do a pomodoro, but don't use a ticking, vibrating noisy kitchen clock.
- xj9 9y ago

ameister14 9y ago

I really don't think it's insidious - the negative effects are obvious. The issue is that open offices are cheaper and you can put a lot more people per square foot in them. They also often look visually more appealing.

juliangoldsmith 9y ago

>I'm starting to think that there's something more insidious going on with an almost aggressively enforced "open office" culture in high tech. Hanlon's razor is useful here. The most likely reason for open offices isn't because of discrimination; it's simply cheaper to pack everyone in a single room than to give everyone a space of their own.

JKCalhoun 9y ago
Yes, but it's a good point nonetheless — perhaps "unintended consequence" is a better description than "insidious".

tomc1985 9y ago

Ugh. Why must things always coalesce at one end of an extreme or another? Formality is bad. It is another layer of separation between you and the work. Way back when the original meaning of 'informal' simply meant your employer didn't care about non-work-related stuff like attire -- but its morphed into a culture of its own, destroyed perceptions towards those who really are results-oriented, and sent a lot of people down this path thinking formal is better. A lot of don't want suits at our workplace, but neither do we want ping-pong tables, or even beer (gasp!). We want to be left alone to do our work so we can go home on time and live a happy life. I think we can thank business-management types, this obnoxious brogrammer culture, and all the not-really-a-computer-nerd-but-I-learned-to-code hacks for the culture we have now. Leave it to the muggles to ruin everything... sigh

thread_id 9y ago
Could not have stated it better!!
speedplane 9y ago
Formality is bad because it locks people into a restrictive environment, but it's good because the rules are clear to all who are playing the game. Ideally, we would have clear rules that are not restrictive, but those are very difficult rules to come up with.
srbl 9y ago
I think you should re-examine the notion that toxic workplaces in tech (particularly w/r/t sexism) result from forces entirely unrelated to the behavior of "actual" computer nerds.
grageth 9y ago
So well said. Personally, I can't stand beer. Just give me anything that tastes good on ice and I'm happy. It's so interesting seeing you state the not-really-a-nerd thing. I am a true nerd that was coding at 11 in QBasic, but at the same time I played rugby and partied hard with my friends. The laughable thing is that I worked with my first female programmer in 1999 and to this day believe she was one of the best programmers I ever worked with. I'm willing to bet she never thought of us as a bunch of "brogrammers". And I worked for a company owned by ultra-conservative Afrikaans South Africans. She was just another programmer like the rest of us that worked hard and got shit done. We all got paid on merit there and I don't think gender ever entered the equation. But then this wasn't in America and I've come to understand and accept that America is about ceremony over authenticity. I see it in everywhere in the culture. Ceremony and labels. Oooooh American's love their labels. Let me label you and put you in a box, then I understand you, then I know how to treat you in a "politically correct" way. I grew up in South Africa while apartheid was still in effect. I was privileged enough to see it break down and Mandela elected president during high school. Maybe I just kid myself but, personally, I've always just seen each person as an individual and rather got to know them before branding them based on gender, race, religion or what not. Or maybe the drugs were just good and I loved everyone...

Ntrails 9y ago

> not knowing where to put her bag if she wasn't at her desk watching it, and having to take it with her to the bathroom I find this bizarre - what do you think the people you work with are going to rob you or go through your stuff? I seem to recall one place had a couple of iphones nicked off desks once by someone who'd managed to shoulder surf inside but I mean of all the complaints that's an odd one to me

DanBC 9y ago
Some women keep tampons or pads in their bags, and don't want to rummage through their bags to retrieve the tampon or pad before visiting the bathroom.
erroneousfunk 9y ago
Yeah, I've worked in many offices of various sizes and have never been worried about my stuff being stolen. I tend to be a little more relaxed about the fear of theft than most, but the office seems like a fairly safe place.

TACIXAT 9y ago

Why is everyone concerned with how often they piss? I drink 3-4 liters of water a day and take many bathroom breaks. Who cares? Everyone does it. I think it's more concerning that people aren't drinking enough water.

redwood 9y ago
Funny you say that. So many men in tech cos often means lines at the men's room. So it's a time sync. Smart phones do alleviate