9 ms·

Wow. Those are some remarkable results. I've hypothesized for a while now that the Black Lives Matter movement might be distracting us from what might be the t

Wow. Those are some remarkable results. I've hypothesized for a while now that the Black Lives Matter movement might be distracting us from what might be the true cause of the problems they seek to address. Blaming the problem on "racist" cops by default instead of performing a root cause analysis is leading us to overlook the likelihood that poorer communities, that are often predominantly black, are more likely to be exposed to lead. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/13/black-children-at-risk-for-lead-poisoning-_n_7672920.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/13/black-children-at-r...

astrodust 9y ago
Exposure leads to behaviour modification which leads to law enforcement over-generalizing behaviour patterns they've observed. It will take some time to unwind this terrible mess even if the lead problem is eliminated entirely tomorrow. This doesn't mean the cops aren't racist and that lead isn't a problem.
- malandrew 9y ago
  Agree mostly. However, is it actually an overgeneralization if it is statistically proportional with rate of violent crime: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-43 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
- 13of40 9y ago
  I'm sure this probably isn't the case, but what if lead exposure made you more likely to get caught for a crime but didn't affect the chances of committing one? Are there any all-else-being-equal studies that can tell us whether violent crime is higher in areas with a high rate of lead exposure?
  - astrodust 9y ago
    The studies I've read seem to indicate that lead exposure erodes impulse control which leads to people making very bad decisions they'd otherwise not make. So it probably tilts things towards people committing more brazen crimes which lead to higher arrest rates, but also more crime and violence in general. The "all-else-being-equal" studies tend to focus on the primary source of lead: Leaded fuel. As many housing projects were built next to highways, people living there were exposed to significantly higher levels of atmospheric lead than in other more remote parts. When lead was banned from fuel, crime rates dropped, and you can see this play out in similar neighborhoods in different states where the phasing out happened at different times.
kefka 9y ago
It's not like they have the ability to bring legal action against those that pollute their areas. And unfortunately, that's how it is playing out. Richer (read: White) neighborhoods are kep pollution-wise cleaner in both soil and air pollution. Whereas communities primarily African American are dirtier. Chemical factories move in, coal factories start up. Polluting industries take over, primarily because people haven't the money to "NIMBY" them. http://www.alternet.org/environment/7-toxic-assaults-communities-color-besides-flint-dirty-racial-politics-pollution http://www.alternet.org/environment/7-toxic-assaults-communi... http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/envjust/ch2.htm http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/envjust/ch2.htm http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/2012/unequal-exposures http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/2012/unequal... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-poor-neighborhoods-breate-more-hazardous-particles/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-poor-neigh...
rayiner 9y ago
Only to the extent that focusing on any aspect of a multi-faceted problem distracts from other aspects of the problem. Read the DOJ report on Ferguson: the issue of racist cops and public officials is not invented.
- haberman 9y ago
  Absolutely true, but on the same day that report was released the DOJ also released a report on the shooting of Michael Brown that essentially vindicated Darren Wilson and confirmed his account of the events of that day. It found that the "hands up, don't shoot" version of the events was not credible. The problem that I think grandparent is highlighting is: BLM activism only seems receptive to hearing/addressing certain facets of the problem, facets that fit within a certain narrative. Aspects of the problem and possible solutions that lie outside this narrative are ignored, discredited, or (worst of all) actively attacked as racist perpetuation of the oppression.
  - malandrew 9y ago
    This. At least someone gets what I'm trying to highlight. Lead poisoning and intervention doesn't get enough attention. When the black community suffers lead poisoning at 1.6x the rate of the general population and there is solid evidence showing a link between lead poisoning and violent crime and poor impulse control, it seems to me like lead needs more attention than it gets from those that purport to value black lives. Men commit more violence than women. No one will argue against these statistics. Black men commit more violence than men of other races. Few if any acknowledge these statistics. I see no reason why there is anything inherent about being black that would lead to this (nature), so it's important to come up with hypotheses that could explain this through nurture. The two I can come up with are lead poisoning and the lack of male role models. The latter gets some attention. The former gets none. When you see studies like this one posted today, where the results are so strong, it makes you wonder why this doesn't get more attention if we really care about addressing all factors that contribute to black men experiencing police violence. A racist interpretation would be say that black men are more violent because they are black. That is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that their race has nothing to do with the higher incidence of violence crime committed. I'm saying the exposure to lead might be contributing. Black people, especially black men are being victims twice. First, they are more likely to be victims of lead poisoning. Second, they are more likely to be victims of racial profiling, which itself might be amplified by the increased likelihood of violence caused by lead poisoning.
MaxfordAndSons 9y ago
>Blaming the problem on "racist" cops by default instead of performing a root cause analysis is leading us to overlook the likelihood that poorer communities, that are often predominantly black, are more likely to be exposed to lead. The idea that BLM is just a distraction because your "root cause analysis" points to lead poisoning is laughably offensive. I don't think most BLM supporters would assert that "'racist' cops" are the "root cause" of America's mistreatment of black people, rather they're the most visible expression of a system that devalues black lives, because they kill dozens of black people with impunity every month. Lead pipes are just another, less visible, expression of the same system, just like the still segregated school systems, the gerrymandered voting districts, and the 400 years of history that led to the present.
- malandrew 9y ago
  > I don't think most BLM supporters would assert that "'racist' cops" are the "root cause" of America's mistreatment of black people Anecdotal, but every single supporter I've engaged with to date until this comment, n>100. My point is that lead does not get nearly the attention it deserves. The Google search results for "lead poisoning site:blacklivesmatter.com" returns exactly one result, which is a statement on Flint, Michigan, that makes no mention of the relationship between violent crime and lead poisoning.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> I've hypothesized for a while now that the Black Lives Matter movement might be distracting us from what might be the true cause of the problems they seek to address. Blaming the problem on "racist" cops by default Since BLM focuses on a wide array of social, political, and economic, and environmental issues (including interplay between issues in the various domains) involved in the social dismissal of the value of black lives, and not "racist cops by default" (indeed, the motivating event for BLM's formation wasn't even a law-enforcement killing), I think your complaint is misdirected and should instead be directed at whatever media channels you consume that give you this distorted view of BLM.
- malandrew 9y ago
  My sources here aren't media channels, but every single BLM member or supporter I've engaged in debate with (n>100) until this comment (probably because this is the first venue I've raised this where lead poisoning is the primary topic of conversation). To date, not a single supporter or member I've engaged with has acknowledged lead poisoning as a potential culprit when I try to raise it (probably because acknowledging lead poisoning as a cause requires one to also acknowledge the higher incidence of violent crime committed by black men, which is inconvenient to the racist police narrative they are pushing). In these debates, I usually point to this table of FBI statistics, which shows a significantly higher level of crime committed by both men (all races) and black men in particular on a per capita basis as an explanation for the disproportionate number of men and in particular black men shot by cops. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-43 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-... Cops are more aggressive with black people but don't actually kill them at a greater rate relative to the number of violent crimes committed. Here is Roland G. Fryer's research showing this: https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399 https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399 I'm not discounting that black lives matter. I'm supportive of it. My point is that if we really care about fixing the problems that result in increased mortality in that demographic, we should instead be focusing on likely root causes such as lead poisoning. Lead should be getting so much more attention in the BLM debate, but it does not. Why?
  - MichaelBosworth 9y ago
tryitnow 9y ago
I'm not a fan of BLM, but I am pretty sure you're mischaracterizing their efforts. From what I've read they seem focused on targeting institutional racism - and police reform is just one component of that. Their approach is far broader and I am pretty sure they've made linkages with the "environmental justice" movement which is very much focused on problems like the effects of lead contamination.
- mnglkhn2 9y ago
  can you point to an example of "institutional racism?" So, that, at least we have a clear starting point of something that needs addressing. Speaking in general does not help anybody. I, for one, would not know where to look if you simply state "institutional racism", without giving me an example of what it actually means.
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    Come on now, I bet your ability to use search engines and public knowledge bases is actually great. It's a broad topic of frequent debate, and other posters aren't obligated to bring you up to speed on it. You can at least familiarize yourself with the popular concepts and then figure out your perspective in relation to those. It's rude to demand that people drop what they're discussing in order to give you foundational knowledge you can so easily pick you for yourself.
    - mnglkhn2 9y ago
      "Foundational knowledge" implies ability to effortlessly recall examples, especially since it would help educate a fellow in need. So far you just pushed the puck away and sent me to a search engine.
nitwit005 9y ago
It generally seems to be a lot easier to generate political action around certain types of issues than others. It's hard to get hundreds of people into the streets to demand better transportation and sewer system repair, even if those issues are measurably more impactful than something like police violence.
weberc2 9y ago
Disclaimer: I support equality, and believe any inequality in policing should be promptly corrected. I shouldn't have to make this kind of disclaimer, but it cuts down on the harassment for violating orthodoxy. It's also kind of a bummer that BLM started with the "white cops killing black kids" narrative, then when the data showed that black cops are much more likely to shoot a black kid than are white cops, they transitioned to "cops are disproportionately killing black kids", then that was disproven and their issue became the more nebulous "systemic inequalities in policing", but not before a lot of criminal veneration (Michael Brown) and hand waving about how rioting may or may not be justified. The moral of the story is they may have had a valid point, but they've totally discredited themselves and probably made policing less effective for the most vulnerable communities.
- JL2010 9y ago
  > "cops are disproportionately killing black kids", then that was disproven Was that disproven? The studies that I've read have shown disproportionate police shooting fatality rates among African American men, especially in the unarmed case when adjusted for population. [1] The unarmed case is the one I pay attention to the most as I think that it (mostly?) filters out cases where shootings were justified. I'd like to keep an open mind so I welcome any reading that has disproven the disproportionate argument. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shoo...
  - bogositosius 9y ago
    >when adjusted for population Have you adjusted for crime rates?
    - hwillis 9y ago
      You really can't, because black people are arrested, tried and convicted WAY disproportionately to the actual rate of crimes. eg white people smoke weed as much or more than black people, and are arrested at a far lower rate for it.
guelo 9y ago
It doesn't have to be either or, we should make communities healthier AND make police more professional and fair.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Danihan 9y ago
  Who is we?
anigbrowl 9y ago
I don't think you understand their platform very well. Police bias, which is a real thing, is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the structural racism issues they care about. You might like to consider how public spending for lead abatement correlates with demographics. Flint, MI is an obvious starting point for your inquiry. I'm very supportive of BLM, which is not the same thing as an endorsement of every single thing everyone in a BLM shirt or at a BLM event has ever said. Just like any networked attempt to disrupt the status quo, there will be a certain number of missteps, mistakes, pivots, and so on. The fact that BLM is a social rather than technological undertaking doesn't make it so different from any other kind of startup.
jlg23 9y ago
correlation != causation. That conviction rates in some disadvantaged communities are so much higher has also been linked to disproportional levels of policing in those communities. A potentially contributing factor does not invalidate legitimate civil rights concerns in another area.
rhizome 9y ago
Your fallacy is: Relative Privation. It's not BLM's responsibility to "acknowledge" your point, and it's not even their responsibility to prioritize this specific issue in a way that you prefer. BLM's priorities also don't prevent anybody, such as yourself, from getting involved in environmental justice groups that are active in pursuing the lead-crime connection. While lead may be implicated in the situation(s) that caused BLM to arise, it's not anything anybody can do anything about more than activism in terms of Flint, et al. That said, do you know who Nayyirah Shariff is? Out of curiosity, what exactly is your goal in pursuing your line of logic, of needing "BLM" to "acknowledge" lead's role? What outcome would you like to see?
ZeroGravitas 9y ago
Won't cops come from similar (though not identical) socio-economic backgrounds? Has anyone tested the cops for lead exposure? edit: seems some of them are getting lead poisoning from their shooting range http://projects.seattletimes.com/2014/loaded-with-lead/ http://projects.seattletimes.com/2014/loaded-with-lead/

astrodust 9y ago

Exposure leads to behaviour modification which leads to law enforcement over-generalizing behaviour patterns they've observed. It will take some time to unwind this terrible mess even if the lead problem is eliminated entirely tomorrow. This doesn't mean the cops aren't racist and that lead isn't a problem.

malandrew 9y ago
Agree mostly. However, is it actually an overgeneralization if it is statistically proportional with rate of violent crime: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-43 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
13of40 9y ago
I'm sure this probably isn't the case, but what if lead exposure made you more likely to get caught for a crime but didn't affect the chances of committing one? Are there any all-else-being-equal studies that can tell us whether violent crime is higher in areas with a high rate of lead exposure?
- astrodust 9y ago
  The studies I've read seem to indicate that lead exposure erodes impulse control which leads to people making very bad decisions they'd otherwise not make. So it probably tilts things towards people committing more brazen crimes which lead to higher arrest rates, but also more crime and violence in general. The "all-else-being-equal" studies tend to focus on the primary source of lead: Leaded fuel. As many housing projects were built next to highways, people living there were exposed to significantly higher levels of atmospheric lead than in other more remote parts. When lead was banned from fuel, crime rates dropped, and you can see this play out in similar neighborhoods in different states where the phasing out happened at different times.

kefka 9y ago

It's not like they have the ability to bring legal action against those that pollute their areas. And unfortunately, that's how it is playing out. Richer (read: White) neighborhoods are kep pollution-wise cleaner in both soil and air pollution. Whereas communities primarily African American are dirtier. Chemical factories move in, coal factories start up. Polluting industries take over, primarily because people haven't the money to "NIMBY" them. http://www.alternet.org/environment/7-toxic-assaults-communities-color-besides-flint-dirty-racial-politics-pollution http://www.alternet.org/environment/7-toxic-assaults-communi... http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/envjust/ch2.htm http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/envjust/ch2.htm http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/2012/unequal-exposures http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/2012/unequal... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-poor-neighborhoods-breate-more-hazardous-particles/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-poor-neigh...

rayiner 9y ago

Only to the extent that focusing on any aspect of a multi-faceted problem distracts from other aspects of the problem. Read the DOJ report on Ferguson: the issue of racist cops and public officials is not invented.

haberman 9y ago
Absolutely true, but on the same day that report was released the DOJ also released a report on the shooting of Michael Brown that essentially vindicated Darren Wilson and confirmed his account of the events of that day. It found that the "hands up, don't shoot" version of the events was not credible. The problem that I think grandparent is highlighting is: BLM activism only seems receptive to hearing/addressing certain facets of the problem, facets that fit within a certain narrative. Aspects of the problem and possible solutions that lie outside this narrative are ignored, discredited, or (worst of all) actively attacked as racist perpetuation of the oppression.
- malandrew 9y ago
  This. At least someone gets what I'm trying to highlight. Lead poisoning and intervention doesn't get enough attention. When the black community suffers lead poisoning at 1.6x the rate of the general population and there is solid evidence showing a link between lead poisoning and violent crime and poor impulse control, it seems to me like lead needs more attention than it gets from those that purport to value black lives. Men commit more violence than women. No one will argue against these statistics. Black men commit more violence than men of other races. Few if any acknowledge these statistics. I see no reason why there is anything inherent about being black that would lead to this (nature), so it's important to come up with hypotheses that could explain this through nurture. The two I can come up with are lead poisoning and the lack of male role models. The latter gets some attention. The former gets none. When you see studies like this one posted today, where the results are so strong, it makes you wonder why this doesn't get more attention if we really care about addressing all factors that contribute to black men experiencing police violence. A racist interpretation would be say that black men are more violent because they are black. That is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that their race has nothing to do with the higher incidence of violence crime committed. I'm saying the exposure to lead might be contributing. Black people, especially black men are being victims twice. First, they are more likely to be victims of lead poisoning. Second, they are more likely to be victims of racial profiling, which itself might be amplified by the increased likelihood of violence caused by lead poisoning.

MaxfordAndSons 9y ago

>Blaming the problem on "racist" cops by default instead of performing a root cause analysis is leading us to overlook the likelihood that poorer communities, that are often predominantly black, are more likely to be exposed to lead. The idea that BLM is just a distraction because your "root cause analysis" points to lead poisoning is laughably offensive. I don't think most BLM supporters would assert that "'racist' cops" are the "root cause" of America's mistreatment of black people, rather they're the most visible expression of a system that devalues black lives, because they kill dozens of black people with impunity every month. Lead pipes are just another, less visible, expression of the same system, just like the still segregated school systems, the gerrymandered voting districts, and the 400 years of history that led to the present.

malandrew 9y ago
> I don't think most BLM supporters would assert that "'racist' cops" are the "root cause" of America's mistreatment of black people Anecdotal, but every single supporter I've engaged with to date until this comment, n>100. My point is that lead does not get nearly the attention it deserves. The Google search results for "lead poisoning site:blacklivesmatter.com" returns exactly one result, which is a statement on Flint, Michigan, that makes no mention of the relationship between violent crime and lead poisoning.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> I've hypothesized for a while now that the Black Lives Matter movement might be distracting us from what might be the true cause of the problems they seek to address. Blaming the problem on "racist" cops by default Since BLM focuses on a wide array of social, political, and economic, and environmental issues (including interplay between issues in the various domains) involved in the social dismissal of the value of black lives, and not "racist cops by default" (indeed, the motivating event for BLM's formation wasn't even a law-enforcement killing), I think your complaint is misdirected and should instead be directed at whatever media channels you consume that give you this distorted view of BLM.

malandrew 9y ago
My sources here aren't media channels, but every single BLM member or supporter I've engaged in debate with (n>100) until this comment (probably because this is the first venue I've raised this where lead poisoning is the primary topic of conversation). To date, not a single supporter or member I've engaged with has acknowledged lead poisoning as a potential culprit when I try to raise it (probably because acknowledging lead poisoning as a cause requires one to also acknowledge the higher incidence of violent crime committed by black men, which is inconvenient to the racist police narrative they are pushing). In these debates, I usually point to this table of FBI statistics, which shows a significantly higher level of crime committed by both men (all races) and black men in particular on a per capita basis as an explanation for the disproportionate number of men and in particular black men shot by cops. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-43 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-... Cops are more aggressive with black people but don't actually kill them at a greater rate relative to the number of violent crimes committed. Here is Roland G. Fryer's research showing this: https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399 https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399 I'm not discounting that black lives matter. I'm supportive of it. My point is that if we really care about fixing the problems that result in increased mortality in that demographic, we should instead be focusing on likely root causes such as lead poisoning. Lead should be getting so much more attention in the BLM debate, but it does not. Why?
- MichaelBosworth 9y ago

tryitnow 9y ago

I'm not a fan of BLM, but I am pretty sure you're mischaracterizing their efforts. From what I've read they seem focused on targeting institutional racism - and police reform is just one component of that. Their approach is far broader and I am pretty sure they've made linkages with the "environmental justice" movement which is very much focused on problems like the effects of lead contamination.

mnglkhn2 9y ago
can you point to an example of "institutional racism?" So, that, at least we have a clear starting point of something that needs addressing. Speaking in general does not help anybody. I, for one, would not know where to look if you simply state "institutional racism", without giving me an example of what it actually means.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  Come on now, I bet your ability to use search engines and public knowledge bases is actually great. It's a broad topic of frequent debate, and other posters aren't obligated to bring you up to speed on it. You can at least familiarize yourself with the popular concepts and then figure out your perspective in relation to those. It's rude to demand that people drop what they're discussing in order to give you foundational knowledge you can so easily pick you for yourself.
  - mnglkhn2 9y ago
    "Foundational knowledge" implies ability to effortlessly recall examples, especially since it would help educate a fellow in need. So far you just pushed the puck away and sent me to a search engine.

nitwit005 9y ago

It generally seems to be a lot easier to generate political action around certain types of issues than others. It's hard to get hundreds of people into the streets to demand better transportation and sewer system repair, even if those issues are measurably more impactful than something like police violence.

weberc2 9y ago

Disclaimer: I support equality, and believe any inequality in policing should be promptly corrected. I shouldn't have to make this kind of disclaimer, but it cuts down on the harassment for violating orthodoxy. It's also kind of a bummer that BLM started with the "white cops killing black kids" narrative, then when the data showed that black cops are much more likely to shoot a black kid than are white cops, they transitioned to "cops are disproportionately killing black kids", then that was disproven and their issue became the more nebulous "systemic inequalities in policing", but not before a lot of criminal veneration (Michael Brown) and hand waving about how rioting may or may not be justified. The moral of the story is they may have had a valid point, but they've totally discredited themselves and probably made policing less effective for the most vulnerable communities.

JL2010 9y ago
> "cops are disproportionately killing black kids", then that was disproven Was that disproven? The studies that I've read have shown disproportionate police shooting fatality rates among African American men, especially in the unarmed case when adjusted for population. [1] The unarmed case is the one I pay attention to the most as I think that it (mostly?) filters out cases where shootings were justified. I'd like to keep an open mind so I welcome any reading that has disproven the disproportionate argument. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shoo...
- bogositosius 9y ago
  >when adjusted for population Have you adjusted for crime rates?
  - hwillis 9y ago
    You really can't, because black people are arrested, tried and convicted WAY disproportionately to the actual rate of crimes. eg white people smoke weed as much or more than black people, and are arrested at a far lower rate for it.

guelo 9y ago

It doesn't have to be either or, we should make communities healthier AND make police more professional and fair.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Danihan 9y ago
Who is we?

anigbrowl 9y ago

I don't think you understand their platform very well. Police bias, which is a real thing, is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the structural racism issues they care about. You might like to consider how public spending for lead abatement correlates with demographics. Flint, MI is an obvious starting point for your inquiry. I'm very supportive of BLM, which is not the same thing as an endorsement of every single thing everyone in a BLM shirt or at a BLM event has ever said. Just like any networked attempt to disrupt the status quo, there will be a certain number of missteps, mistakes, pivots, and so on. The fact that BLM is a social rather than technological undertaking doesn't make it so different from any other kind of startup.

jlg23 9y ago

correlation != causation. That conviction rates in some disadvantaged communities are so much higher has also been linked to disproportional levels of policing in those communities. A potentially contributing factor does not invalidate legitimate civil rights concerns in another area.

rhizome 9y ago

Your fallacy is: Relative Privation. It's not BLM's responsibility to "acknowledge" your point, and it's not even their responsibility to prioritize this specific issue in a way that you prefer. BLM's priorities also don't prevent anybody, such as yourself, from getting involved in environmental justice groups that are active in pursuing the lead-crime connection. While lead may be implicated in the situation(s) that caused BLM to arise, it's not anything anybody can do anything about more than activism in terms of Flint, et al. That said, do you know who Nayyirah Shariff is? Out of curiosity, what exactly is your goal in pursuing your line of logic, of needing "BLM" to "acknowledge" lead's role? What outcome would you like to see?

ZeroGravitas 9y ago

Won't cops come from similar (though not identical) socio-economic backgrounds? Has anyone tested the cops for lead exposure? edit: seems some of them are getting lead poisoning from their shooting range http://projects.seattletimes.com/2014/loaded-with-lead/ http://projects.seattletimes.com/2014/loaded-with-lead/