3 ms·

> You're still balancing the wrong thing. The people underrepresented in this industry are from particular socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds. The people wi

> You're still balancing the wrong thing. The people underrepresented in this industry are from particular socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds. The people with those backgrounds are not racially balanced, but that does not make balancing on race a solution. If you actually balance on socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds, you will tend to regress towards the base population distribution of your hiring locality. But that's not what we see. Indeed, by selecting for white men in America you actually will amplify classist effects in America, as wealth is disproportionately distributed to white men. Ultimately this is the observation it feels to me like you're hoping to avoid. If we're genuinely seeking a diversity of perspective we'd expect to see ethinic, class and religious diversity as a natural outcome of this desire. That we don't suggests that in fact people are interested in the OPPOSITE a diversity of opinion. This particular bellwether is important because it signals a concrete group of people who are excluded just because of how they look and the preconceptions that surround that. This is exactly what you say you don't want anyone to do, but exactly what you refuse to concede might be happening given the stats. > If a particular culture discourages its members from becoming computer scientists then the members of that culture will be underrepresented in computer science. What even is this trying to say? What specific group is both discouraging its members to be computer scientists and also publicly demanding more opportunities in computer science?

AnthonyMouse 9y ago
> If you actually balance on socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds, you will tend to regress towards the base population distribution of your hiring locality. If you actually balance on socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds, you will tend to regress toward the base population distribution of the qualified applicants in your hiring locality. Which is basically what we see. It's not as if there are a slew of black programmers that no one will hire because of racism. The outcome is primarily a result of the lack of qualified minority applicants. > Indeed, by selecting for white men in America you actually will amplify classist effects in America, as wealth is disproportionately distributed to white men. The causation goes the other way. In order to get into this field you have to come from a culture that encourages young people to learn math and computers, and a family that can afford to send their children to college. Those conditions create much of the racial disparity in qualified applicants. The economic problem has a plausible solution, you can subsidize higher education, the main impediment being how to finance it. But what do you propose to do about the cultural differences? If children in one culture aspire to be tech entrepreneurs and children in another culture aspire to be professional athletes, you're going to see different outcomes. > What specific group is both discouraging its members to be computer scientists and also publicly demanding more opportunities in computer science? Groups like "women" or "African Americans" are broad and internally diverse. You can trivially find contradictory opinions. One black man laments the small number of black men in computer science while another black man encourages his children to join the basketball team instead of the computer club.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  > If you actually balance on socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds, you will tend to regress toward the base population distribution of the qualified applicants in your hiring alocality. There is no way to deny that some specialist disciplines have a paucity of non-white-male populations. But this too is a manufactured situation in many fields. Since schools don't directly train computer science skills, they're acquired in the workplace. Workplaces have a higher pass rate on non-white men than white men. We've not no problem investing in young white men. Women of all colors? Not so much. > It's not as if there are a slew of black programmers that no one will hire because of racism. Actually there are a lot of black programmers who have a hard time finding work (or keeping it) because of workplace discrimination. It's not difficult to go to google and find a non-trivial number of cases. I encourage you do so, since I doubt you'd trust any selection I offer. You cannot appeal to the pipeline problem to evade the problem of workplace harassment and discrimination. Even if we normalize for the skewed workplace demographics, white men make more. > The causation goes the other way. In order to get into this field you have to come from a culture that encourages young people to learn math and computers, It didn't take terribly long for you to start insinuating in a post that african american culture hates scholarship, did it? > and a family that can afford to send their children to college. Those conditions create much of the racial disparity in qualified applicants. I'm not sure where college enters into it, but yes, education is dependent on a stable home life. > Groups like "women" or "African Americans" are broad and internally diverse. You can trivially find contradictory opinions. I went and looked around. I found a few specific cases where religious objections were raised but they generally don't then demand more access to the field. Seems contradictory and non-trivial.

AnthonyMouse 9y ago

> If you actually balance on socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds, you will tend to regress towards the base population distribution of your hiring locality. If you actually balance on socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds, you will tend to regress toward the base population distribution of the qualified applicants in your hiring locality. Which is basically what we see. It's not as if there are a slew of black programmers that no one will hire because of racism. The outcome is primarily a result of the lack of qualified minority applicants. > Indeed, by selecting for white men in America you actually will amplify classist effects in America, as wealth is disproportionately distributed to white men. The causation goes the other way. In order to get into this field you have to come from a culture that encourages young people to learn math and computers, and a family that can afford to send their children to college. Those conditions create much of the racial disparity in qualified applicants. The economic problem has a plausible solution, you can subsidize higher education, the main impediment being how to finance it. But what do you propose to do about the cultural differences? If children in one culture aspire to be tech entrepreneurs and children in another culture aspire to be professional athletes, you're going to see different outcomes. > What specific group is both discouraging its members to be computer scientists and also publicly demanding more opportunities in computer science? Groups like "women" or "African Americans" are broad and internally diverse. You can trivially find contradictory opinions. One black man laments the small number of black men in computer science while another black man encourages his children to join the basketball team instead of the computer club.

KirinDave 9y ago
> If you actually balance on socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds, you will tend to regress toward the base population distribution of the qualified applicants in your hiring alocality. There is no way to deny that some specialist disciplines have a paucity of non-white-male populations. But this too is a manufactured situation in many fields. Since schools don't directly train computer science skills, they're acquired in the workplace. Workplaces have a higher pass rate on non-white men than white men. We've not no problem investing in young white men. Women of all colors? Not so much. > It's not as if there are a slew of black programmers that no one will hire because of racism. Actually there are a lot of black programmers who have a hard time finding work (or keeping it) because of workplace discrimination. It's not difficult to go to google and find a non-trivial number of cases. I encourage you do so, since I doubt you'd trust any selection I offer. You cannot appeal to the pipeline problem to evade the problem of workplace harassment and discrimination. Even if we normalize for the skewed workplace demographics, white men make more. > The causation goes the other way. In order to get into this field you have to come from a culture that encourages young people to learn math and computers, It didn't take terribly long for you to start insinuating in a post that african american culture hates scholarship, did it? > and a family that can afford to send their children to college. Those conditions create much of the racial disparity in qualified applicants. I'm not sure where college enters into it, but yes, education is dependent on a stable home life. > Groups like "women" or "African Americans" are broad and internally diverse. You can trivially find contradictory opinions. I went and looked around. I found a few specific cases where religious objections were raised but they generally don't then demand more access to the field. Seems contradictory and non-trivial.