6 ms·

There's a weird mentality in America (assuming that's where you are located) that average is bad. Average is just average. There's no reason you need to be a m

There's a weird mentality in America (assuming that's where you are located) that average is bad. Average is just average. There's no reason you need to be a multi-millionaire with 6 houses, 12 cars, and endless spending cash. I also think that there should be more emphasis on separating personal/professional ambition from how much you earn. When people talk about career goals, they usually only mean "money making goals". There's nothing wrong with working just enough to survive and finding satisfaction outside of spending money on crap you don't need. There's nothing "lazy" about making a living (even if its bare minimum to pay the essential bills). What's the point in working 80 hour weeks for a set number of years, spending money excessively, and having a heart attack by age 50 from being over worked? Personally I'd rather be dead broke and happy then over worked and stressed about un-important crap. That's not to say you shouldn't work hard towards your goals, they should just be defined out side of "make more money so I can impress my friends with a new car"

loader 9y ago
These same people will also vote against their own best interests because they think they'll be one of those well off people eventually.
ShannonAlther 9y ago
Hyperbole about stress-induced medical problems aside, money is quantifiably good. A man who makes 10x your salary can take 10x more vacations to the south of France, justify taking more time off work to spend with his family, doesn't have to worry as much about monetary concerns like loan payments or health problems, and so on. It's not just "impressing your friends", having a nice car can be a joy in and of itself, but I'm always weirded out by people who say they don't want social status.
- skynode 9y ago
  I don't understand it either. I can't begin to list the comforts and options that come from being rich. Guess we all know. There's really no alternate reality where it's much better to be average and have little or no options. I usually take the view that I'd listen more to you if, to prove your point more empirically, you got reasonably rich and then just decided to give away all your wealth and resign to some lonely cabin in Maine.
  - nazgul17 9y ago
    A person that thinks compromising his/her own time is not worth the money is already making a choice by not working as hard as you would. You should not discard that. And such a person will not choose to work hard for money in the first place, so you are asking for impossible (or very unlikely) data points. Also, why would someone give up money they already had? They either worked hard for it or obtained it by some luck. In both cases, throwing it away is not earning that person more time for hobbies or to spend with family.
  - jdietrich 9y ago
    >I can't begin to list the comforts and options that come from being rich. I can't either, but for a rather different reason. What exactly does being rich get you these days? You get to sit in a slightly nicer seat on an aeroplane. You get to drive a car that has vastly more power than any sane person needs, rather than one that merely has substantially more power than any sane person needs. You get to own a house with a lot of surplus rooms to fill up with stuff that has no discernible impact on your standard of living. Rich people don't get access to a super-duper internet, they don't get to watch better movies or listen to better music, they don't really get to make better friends. Most material comforts are perfectly accessible to someone on an ordinary middle-class income. Never having to work again is cool, but most people are unlikely to reach that point. Your probability of accumulating that level of wealth before retirement age is remote, the hedonic treadmill is a powerful trap and most people find meaning and value in work anyway. Being average isn't better than being rich, but it isn't much worse either, at least not in a country with a sane government. The stuff that makes a real difference is mostly a matter of public policy - Germans and Scandinavians don't live in fear of a medical bankruptcy or an at-will dismissal, nor do they desperately want to own a home to escape shady landlords and rising rents.
    - ShannonAlther 9y ago
      But wealthy people DO have access to better internet (speed and quantity) and have more leisure time to enjoy media. Also you can do other neat things, like pay for your childrens' education. THAT is a list that goes on for a while. And the statistically average American is barely treading water. I realize that the average European is better off, but that's not relevant to America right now.
- nategri 9y ago
  >>money is quantifiably good 'money' is quantifiable, however 'good' is not
- nazgul17 9y ago
  A man earning 10x as much as I do cannot take 10x more holidays because days are still made of 24 hours and weeks of 7 days. Even more so if said man is working longer hours for the extra money. No one is saying being richer is bad. Just that for many people the compromise is not worth it.
- kungtotte 9y ago
  People don't mind money and riches, they mind the over-achiever attitude and workaholic lifestyle. I can work more and make more money, but I make enough for my lifestyle and I have lots of time left over for my family. I don't want all the money in the world if I won't have the free time to spend the money. That's the point that's being made here. If I were to suddenly get 10% more money for exactly the same amount of work it's not like I'd turn it down, and if I won the lottery I wouldn't give it away.
- nxsynonym 9y ago
  To each his own - personally I don't get validation from material goods, vacations, or social status. If that's what makes you tick, then by all means work your fingers to the bone trying to achieve those things. But this shouldn't be the golden standard for a life well lived. I believe that as a society we should focus more on building happiness through mental health instead of buying into the "buy more be more happy" way of life. Again, if that's what you truly want then go for it - but it shouldn't be assumed.
- throwawaycopy 9y ago
  Social status in my circle has more to do with your songwriting chops and finger picking skills than driving a German luxury car. Townes Van Zandt is one of our heroes and he died basically broke and unknown. Maybe your problem is you're not hanging out with enough poets. Funny enough, here's a verse from my latest: Driving in his Mercedes-Benz, Talking on his Bluetooth headset, About the national debt. With his hand-picked best friends, A past he better damn forget, That's the winning mindset. Chorus: Cuz he knows what to do, He's just better than you, He goes to all the right places, Knows all the right faces, He only gets what he chases, He's just better than you. --- Good luck in the rat race!
exelius 9y ago
The problem is that if you're 30 and "average" in America, you're probably barely scraping by, don't own a house, and have a mountain of debt. It's not a great life if you have to worry whether you're going to make rent on a monthly basis. If you have a job that makes enough to afford the trappings of a comfortable life (place to live, enough left over to save, emergency account for if you get sick/injured, invest in retirement, etc.) and work 40 hours a week, you're in the minority. Outside of HN, people aren't working 80 hour weeks because they're trying to be a millionaire, they're doing it because they need to pay rent. Anyone reading this site is almost by definition in the top 10%.
- klez 9y ago
  > Anyone reading this site is almost by definition in the top 10% That's a pretty wide assumption to make. I'm a young (30) dev, I make just north of 20K euros per year (before taxes), I rent an apartment with my girlfriend and two other people. I wouldn't consider myself poor, but certainly not "top 10%". You make it sound like only venture capitalists and successful startup founders read this site.
- nxsynonym 9y ago
  The issue is circular, in this regard. You should't HAVE to work two jobs or perform above average just to make ends meet. FWIW, I'm 25, working in non-tech at the moment, making 32k a year in the one of the more expensive cities on the east coast. I'm trying to relocate to a cheaper part of the country but between mandatory student loan payments, high rent and general cost of living I can either choose to build an emergency fund, or dump it all on the cost of relocating. My bigger point is that this attitude of workaholism is way too prevalent in American culture. Cost of living and wage decline has followed the trend of "down on their luck millionaires" who think everyone else is just lazy. When minimum wage lands you in deep poverty the system is broken.
xxSparkleSxx 9y ago
I'd be happy with average if average in America meant I could afford healthcare, a mediocre home, and a mediocre car. I almost make the average salary in my city (after 2 STEM degrees) and I can't afford 2/3 of the things I just listed and I'm almost 30. Most people, not me, would also want to be able to afford a family/children.
- silvestrov 9y ago
  This is what average-wage people can get in Scandinavia.
JKCalhoun 9y ago
> I also think that there should be more emphasis on separating personal/professional ambition from how much you earn. Absolutely. I'm probably on the prolific end of the spectrum, but not with the end-goal to make money (although extra money would free me up to be even more prolific). I think the end goal is to make the most out of this brief existence for whatever that's worth (and for whatever you take "most" to mean). I create, therefore I am. At least that seems to be the way I turned out.
scottLobster 9y ago
Speaking for myself, it's not about impressing others. Fun exercise: Find the word "average" in these comments (or any synonym) and replace it with "fragile". That's the issue. "Essential bills" as you put them can skyrocket at a moment's notice no matter how frugal you are. I watched my mom battle cancer for 10 years before she finally succumbed to it, and if my dad had had a lesser job it would have bankrupted us as a family. Furthermore I've seen said medical bankruptcy in some close friends, and that's just one of many things that can and do inevitably go wrong in life even for the best people. "Average" can turn to "destitute" in a matter of weeks. My goal is for my fiancée and I to have enough in the bank for our future family to afford the best available solution to any problem we might have. Car gets totaled? I want to walk into a Carmax and come out with a $10-15,000 replacement the same day. We have a kid with special needs? I want to be able to afford the best teachers and schools there are. I get in an accident and have to go on half-pay for a few months? I want rent/mortage, groceries and other necessities taken care of. I'd also like to be able to afford 10+ years of medical care in my senior years and not risk going bankrupt. Granted I'm only 29 and healthy with a good job, and my fiancée's working on getting her career started so we've got plenty of time and opportunity; but damn straight I'm going for millions, and I'll happily work 60+ hour weeks for decades to get there if that's what it takes. I'm not above taking vacations or breaks or weekends off, and I don't kill myself. I eat well, sleep well, exercise, have date night, etc. But I don't play nearly as many video games as younger me thought I would. :) It's worth it, and I sure as hell won't be squandering the effort on multiple houses or fancy cars.
- roma1n 9y ago
  Aaaaand that's when socialized health-care, good public shcools and good public transportation saves the day. Come to France!
- nxsynonym 9y ago
  Ideally you should be able to live life without these worries on a singular, average paying job - no? These events could happen to everyone - why is it required to go "above and beyond" to have some sort of sense of security in life?
anon182429 9y ago
Going to be totally honest, I try really hard because women are very demanding. Even an average looking woman with average intelligence acts like she deserves some rockstar. If I sit there being average in my Honda Civic, wageslave job, I will have to settle for something far below my league just to make sure she doesn't run off with half my stuff after the boring average life, well, bores her. This will probably be downvoted, but hey, it's the truth and it's what is happening right now. shrugs

loader 9y ago

These same people will also vote against their own best interests because they think they'll be one of those well off people eventually.

ShannonAlther 9y ago

Hyperbole about stress-induced medical problems aside, money is quantifiably good. A man who makes 10x your salary can take 10x more vacations to the south of France, justify taking more time off work to spend with his family, doesn't have to worry as much about monetary concerns like loan payments or health problems, and so on. It's not just "impressing your friends", having a nice car can be a joy in and of itself, but I'm always weirded out by people who say they don't want social status.

skynode 9y ago
I don't understand it either. I can't begin to list the comforts and options that come from being rich. Guess we all know. There's really no alternate reality where it's much better to be average and have little or no options. I usually take the view that I'd listen more to you if, to prove your point more empirically, you got reasonably rich and then just decided to give away all your wealth and resign to some lonely cabin in Maine.
- nazgul17 9y ago
  A person that thinks compromising his/her own time is not worth the money is already making a choice by not working as hard as you would. You should not discard that. And such a person will not choose to work hard for money in the first place, so you are asking for impossible (or very unlikely) data points. Also, why would someone give up money they already had? They either worked hard for it or obtained it by some luck. In both cases, throwing it away is not earning that person more time for hobbies or to spend with family.
- jdietrich 9y ago
  >I can't begin to list the comforts and options that come from being rich. I can't either, but for a rather different reason. What exactly does being rich get you these days? You get to sit in a slightly nicer seat on an aeroplane. You get to drive a car that has vastly more power than any sane person needs, rather than one that merely has substantially more power than any sane person needs. You get to own a house with a lot of surplus rooms to fill up with stuff that has no discernible impact on your standard of living. Rich people don't get access to a super-duper internet, they don't get to watch better movies or listen to better music, they don't really get to make better friends. Most material comforts are perfectly accessible to someone on an ordinary middle-class income. Never having to work again is cool, but most people are unlikely to reach that point. Your probability of accumulating that level of wealth before retirement age is remote, the hedonic treadmill is a powerful trap and most people find meaning and value in work anyway. Being average isn't better than being rich, but it isn't much worse either, at least not in a country with a sane government. The stuff that makes a real difference is mostly a matter of public policy - Germans and Scandinavians don't live in fear of a medical bankruptcy or an at-will dismissal, nor do they desperately want to own a home to escape shady landlords and rising rents.
  - ShannonAlther 9y ago
    But wealthy people DO have access to better internet (speed and quantity) and have more leisure time to enjoy media. Also you can do other neat things, like pay for your childrens' education. THAT is a list that goes on for a while. And the statistically average American is barely treading water. I realize that the average European is better off, but that's not relevant to America right now.
nategri 9y ago
>>money is quantifiably good 'money' is quantifiable, however 'good' is not
nazgul17 9y ago
A man earning 10x as much as I do cannot take 10x more holidays because days are still made of 24 hours and weeks of 7 days. Even more so if said man is working longer hours for the extra money. No one is saying being richer is bad. Just that for many people the compromise is not worth it.
kungtotte 9y ago
People don't mind money and riches, they mind the over-achiever attitude and workaholic lifestyle. I can work more and make more money, but I make enough for my lifestyle and I have lots of time left over for my family. I don't want all the money in the world if I won't have the free time to spend the money. That's the point that's being made here. If I were to suddenly get 10% more money for exactly the same amount of work it's not like I'd turn it down, and if I won the lottery I wouldn't give it away.
nxsynonym 9y ago
To each his own - personally I don't get validation from material goods, vacations, or social status. If that's what makes you tick, then by all means work your fingers to the bone trying to achieve those things. But this shouldn't be the golden standard for a life well lived. I believe that as a society we should focus more on building happiness through mental health instead of buying into the "buy more be more happy" way of life. Again, if that's what you truly want then go for it - but it shouldn't be assumed.
throwawaycopy 9y ago
Social status in my circle has more to do with your songwriting chops and finger picking skills than driving a German luxury car. Townes Van Zandt is one of our heroes and he died basically broke and unknown. Maybe your problem is you're not hanging out with enough poets. Funny enough, here's a verse from my latest: Driving in his Mercedes-Benz, Talking on his Bluetooth headset, About the national debt. With his hand-picked best friends, A past he better damn forget, That's the winning mindset. Chorus: Cuz he knows what to do, He's just better than you, He goes to all the right places, Knows all the right faces, He only gets what he chases, He's just better than you. --- Good luck in the rat race!

exelius 9y ago

The problem is that if you're 30 and "average" in America, you're probably barely scraping by, don't own a house, and have a mountain of debt. It's not a great life if you have to worry whether you're going to make rent on a monthly basis. If you have a job that makes enough to afford the trappings of a comfortable life (place to live, enough left over to save, emergency account for if you get sick/injured, invest in retirement, etc.) and work 40 hours a week, you're in the minority. Outside of HN, people aren't working 80 hour weeks because they're trying to be a millionaire, they're doing it because they need to pay rent. Anyone reading this site is almost by definition in the top 10%.

klez 9y ago
> Anyone reading this site is almost by definition in the top 10% That's a pretty wide assumption to make. I'm a young (30) dev, I make just north of 20K euros per year (before taxes), I rent an apartment with my girlfriend and two other people. I wouldn't consider myself poor, but certainly not "top 10%". You make it sound like only venture capitalists and successful startup founders read this site.
nxsynonym 9y ago
The issue is circular, in this regard. You should't HAVE to work two jobs or perform above average just to make ends meet. FWIW, I'm 25, working in non-tech at the moment, making 32k a year in the one of the more expensive cities on the east coast. I'm trying to relocate to a cheaper part of the country but between mandatory student loan payments, high rent and general cost of living I can either choose to build an emergency fund, or dump it all on the cost of relocating. My bigger point is that this attitude of workaholism is way too prevalent in American culture. Cost of living and wage decline has followed the trend of "down on their luck millionaires" who think everyone else is just lazy. When minimum wage lands you in deep poverty the system is broken.

xxSparkleSxx 9y ago

I'd be happy with average if average in America meant I could afford healthcare, a mediocre home, and a mediocre car. I almost make the average salary in my city (after 2 STEM degrees) and I can't afford 2/3 of the things I just listed and I'm almost 30. Most people, not me, would also want to be able to afford a family/children.

silvestrov 9y ago
This is what average-wage people can get in Scandinavia.

JKCalhoun 9y ago

> I also think that there should be more emphasis on separating personal/professional ambition from how much you earn. Absolutely. I'm probably on the prolific end of the spectrum, but not with the end-goal to make money (although extra money would free me up to be even more prolific). I think the end goal is to make the most out of this brief existence for whatever that's worth (and for whatever you take "most" to mean). I create, therefore I am. At least that seems to be the way I turned out.

scottLobster 9y ago

Speaking for myself, it's not about impressing others. Fun exercise: Find the word "average" in these comments (or any synonym) and replace it with "fragile". That's the issue. "Essential bills" as you put them can skyrocket at a moment's notice no matter how frugal you are. I watched my mom battle cancer for 10 years before she finally succumbed to it, and if my dad had had a lesser job it would have bankrupted us as a family. Furthermore I've seen said medical bankruptcy in some close friends, and that's just one of many things that can and do inevitably go wrong in life even for the best people. "Average" can turn to "destitute" in a matter of weeks. My goal is for my fiancée and I to have enough in the bank for our future family to afford the best available solution to any problem we might have. Car gets totaled? I want to walk into a Carmax and come out with a $10-15,000 replacement the same day. We have a kid with special needs? I want to be able to afford the best teachers and schools there are. I get in an accident and have to go on half-pay for a few months? I want rent/mortage, groceries and other necessities taken care of. I'd also like to be able to afford 10+ years of medical care in my senior years and not risk going bankrupt. Granted I'm only 29 and healthy with a good job, and my fiancée's working on getting her career started so we've got plenty of time and opportunity; but damn straight I'm going for millions, and I'll happily work 60+ hour weeks for decades to get there if that's what it takes. I'm not above taking vacations or breaks or weekends off, and I don't kill myself. I eat well, sleep well, exercise, have date night, etc. But I don't play nearly as many video games as younger me thought I would. :) It's worth it, and I sure as hell won't be squandering the effort on multiple houses or fancy cars.

roma1n 9y ago
Aaaaand that's when socialized health-care, good public shcools and good public transportation saves the day. Come to France!
nxsynonym 9y ago
Ideally you should be able to live life without these worries on a singular, average paying job - no? These events could happen to everyone - why is it required to go "above and beyond" to have some sort of sense of security in life?

anon182429 9y ago

Going to be totally honest, I try really hard because women are very demanding. Even an average looking woman with average intelligence acts like she deserves some rockstar. If I sit there being average in my Honda Civic, wageslave job, I will have to settle for something far below my league just to make sure she doesn't run off with half my stuff after the boring average life, well, bores her. This will probably be downvoted, but hey, it's the truth and it's what is happening right now. shrugs