5 ms·

Learning 80’s style programming today

36 points by loumf 16y ago

forinti 16y ago
The context was completely different. Controlling what appeared on your TV was quite a novelty! And there weren't other interesting things to do on a computer, except for games.
- loumf 16y ago
  On page 5 of the programming guide, it has a list of things you can download from CompuServe. Partial list: * Games * Store-front advertising display (flashing and animated) * Home Babysitter -- teaches kids the alphabet * business spreadsheet * sports data (subscription service on compuserve) * stock quotes (subscription service on compuserve) Granted, I mostly just played games and hacked programs, but I had a word processor and got a copy of GEOS (GUI windowing environment) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEOS_(8-bit_operating_system) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEOS_(8-bit_operating_system)
allenp 16y ago
I don't think flash gets enough credit in this regard. Despite its many flaws, the sheer volume of people exposed to programming concepts from tinkering with flash is enormous. I think one of the biggest reasons for this is the ease of IO, and the type of communities that have formed around its use, like Newgrounds.
- abstractbill 16y ago
  And if you use haXe instead of Adobe's tools, it's not hard to put together a reasonably sane Flash development environment. I agree, Flash is a decent choice for the same reasons BASIC was awesome in the 80s - kids love to make noises and draw/animate graphics. Javascript is catching up on the graphics front, but sound is sadly still just not there.
petercooper 16y ago
After the first paragraph I thought this article was going to say how learning "80's style programming" isn't a good thing in the 2010s, rather than support that Python fits pretty well into it ;-) There's something to be said for 80's style educational style, but I'm not sure we should hang on to the same style of programming.
- loumf 16y ago
  I keep seeing articles that worry about not being able to do this, and I just wanted to show that you pretty much could if you wanted to (no need to buy a C64 as the Salon article author did). I think if someone asked me how to get started hacking around, I'd suggest HTML/Javascript or Processing. They both have the advantage of being very easy to deploy the output if you want (for sharing). They also have progressive enhancement (meaning you can start knowing only a few simple things and learn more as you need it)
  - petercooper 16y ago
    I totally agree. I think you alluded to a certain amount of romanticism in those of us who learned to code in the 80s and I agree with that too. It takes a real effort to see beyond that and to come up with better, more relevant things.
  - Jeema3000 16y ago
    I agree that Javascript is the true heir to BASIC. It's available on pretty much every computer out-of-the-box, much in the same way that BASIC was in the 80s. It's also a lot easier to deploy and share, as you said.
- anin_teger 16y ago
  I thought the article was going to be about doing 80's style development in 2010 (i.e. using Turbo Pascal in DOSbox/Open Watcom etc).
jerf 16y ago
I am really unsympathetic to the idea that programming has gotten harder to get into. It has, but only because of the sheer explosion of alternatives drowning out programming, which is not the point people try to make. In absolutely terms it is still easy, and actually easier than ever. It was never easy, it was just one of a much smaller set of choices. Further edit: It occurs to me I have a relevant anecdote. I was never able to get into assembler on the Commodore 64, having gotten as far as I really could with Basic. I actually had an assembler, but no documentation. I had no ability to get documentation, no idea where to find it, nobody to even ask, hardly any clue that I should be asking. I managed to wedge my computer a few times just typing some vaguely assemblish stuff into it, but no more. Today, www.google.com -> "Commodore 64 assembly" (no quotes) yields http://www.c64.ch/programming/ http://www.c64.ch/programming/ as the first hit. Yeah, it's gotten a lot easier.
- petercooper 16y ago
  Not only that, but getting help is crazy easy nowadays. In the 80's you either had to know someone experienced in real life, buy books, or just pootle around figuring it out for yourself.
  - tkahn6 16y ago
    I still have not physically met any person my own age that can program more than a little Java and I'm about to enter college. And I've never known an adult IRL that has been able to teach me any CS or programming. Very much almost exclusively my knowledge of programming comes from reading books and 'pootling' around (and I started in 2000). I think it's more a matter of where you live than what age you live in.
    - chc 16y ago
      I think you're just taking a lot for granted. You're posting about how you don't know anyone who can program or teach you about CS on a site full of computer scientists. Nowadays you can post any question imaginable on Stack Overflow and get answers quickly, often from the world's top experts. You discount all this because you haven't met these people physically, but really, who cares? That is so much more than you have 20, 30 years ago. "Where you live" is precisely the thing that matters least now. As long as you have access to the Internet, you're only seconds away from anybody in the world.
ygd 16y ago
"It would be trivial for Microsoft to provide a version of BASIC that kids could use, whenever they wanted, to type in all those textbook examples." They do, it's called Small Basic. Although this was written in 2006, before Small Basic existed.

36 points by loumf 16y ago

The context was completely different. Controlling what appeared on your TV was quite a novelty! And there weren't other interesting things to do on a computer, except for games.

loumf 16y ago
On page 5 of the programming guide, it has a list of things you can download from CompuServe. Partial list: * Games * Store-front advertising display (flashing and animated) * Home Babysitter -- teaches kids the alphabet * business spreadsheet * sports data (subscription service on compuserve) * stock quotes (subscription service on compuserve) Granted, I mostly just played games and hacked programs, but I had a word processor and got a copy of GEOS (GUI windowing environment) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEOS_(8-bit_operating_system) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEOS_(8-bit_operating_system)

allenp 16y ago

I don't think flash gets enough credit in this regard. Despite its many flaws, the sheer volume of people exposed to programming concepts from tinkering with flash is enormous. I think one of the biggest reasons for this is the ease of IO, and the type of communities that have formed around its use, like Newgrounds.

abstractbill 16y ago
And if you use haXe instead of Adobe's tools, it's not hard to put together a reasonably sane Flash development environment. I agree, Flash is a decent choice for the same reasons BASIC was awesome in the 80s - kids love to make noises and draw/animate graphics. Javascript is catching up on the graphics front, but sound is sadly still just not there.

petercooper 16y ago

After the first paragraph I thought this article was going to say how learning "80's style programming" isn't a good thing in the 2010s, rather than support that Python fits pretty well into it ;-) There's something to be said for 80's style educational style, but I'm not sure we should hang on to the same style of programming.

loumf 16y ago
I keep seeing articles that worry about not being able to do this, and I just wanted to show that you pretty much could if you wanted to (no need to buy a C64 as the Salon article author did). I think if someone asked me how to get started hacking around, I'd suggest HTML/Javascript or Processing. They both have the advantage of being very easy to deploy the output if you want (for sharing). They also have progressive enhancement (meaning you can start knowing only a few simple things and learn more as you need it)
- petercooper 16y ago
  I totally agree. I think you alluded to a certain amount of romanticism in those of us who learned to code in the 80s and I agree with that too. It takes a real effort to see beyond that and to come up with better, more relevant things.
- Jeema3000 16y ago
  I agree that Javascript is the true heir to BASIC. It's available on pretty much every computer out-of-the-box, much in the same way that BASIC was in the 80s. It's also a lot easier to deploy and share, as you said.
anin_teger 16y ago
I thought the article was going to be about doing 80's style development in 2010 (i.e. using Turbo Pascal in DOSbox/Open Watcom etc).

jerf 16y ago

I am really unsympathetic to the idea that programming has gotten harder to get into. It has, but only because of the sheer explosion of alternatives drowning out programming, which is not the point people try to make. In absolutely terms it is still easy, and actually easier than ever. It was never easy, it was just one of a much smaller set of choices. Further edit: It occurs to me I have a relevant anecdote. I was never able to get into assembler on the Commodore 64, having gotten as far as I really could with Basic. I actually had an assembler, but no documentation. I had no ability to get documentation, no idea where to find it, nobody to even ask, hardly any clue that I should be asking. I managed to wedge my computer a few times just typing some vaguely assemblish stuff into it, but no more. Today, www.google.com -> "Commodore 64 assembly" (no quotes) yields http://www.c64.ch/programming/ http://www.c64.ch/programming/ as the first hit. Yeah, it's gotten a lot easier.

petercooper 16y ago
Not only that, but getting help is crazy easy nowadays. In the 80's you either had to know someone experienced in real life, buy books, or just pootle around figuring it out for yourself.
- tkahn6 16y ago
  I still have not physically met any person my own age that can program more than a little Java and I'm about to enter college. And I've never known an adult IRL that has been able to teach me any CS or programming. Very much almost exclusively my knowledge of programming comes from reading books and 'pootling' around (and I started in 2000). I think it's more a matter of where you live than what age you live in.
  - chc 16y ago
    I think you're just taking a lot for granted. You're posting about how you don't know anyone who can program or teach you about CS on a site full of computer scientists. Nowadays you can post any question imaginable on Stack Overflow and get answers quickly, often from the world's top experts. You discount all this because you haven't met these people physically, but really, who cares? That is so much more than you have 20, 30 years ago. "Where you live" is precisely the thing that matters least now. As long as you have access to the Internet, you're only seconds away from anybody in the world.

ygd 16y ago

"It would be trivial for Microsoft to provide a version of BASIC that kids could use, whenever they wanted, to type in all those textbook examples." They do, it's called Small Basic. Although this was written in 2006, before Small Basic existed.