3 ms·

We punish speech all the time, in certain limited and well-defined ways, and is not particularly controversial. Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_S

We punish speech all the time, in certain limited and well-defined ways, and is not particularly controversial. Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce... . Threatening someone with bodily harm can be punished, as can libel. These don't cover this particular case, but your statement is vague enough I think this response is warranted. In general, it's important to note that the separate between speech and action isn't as clear cut as you assert, especially speech made in a public forum. Speech affects others, and words can be used to cause others pain or discomfort. Speech has direct consequences on others just like any action, and this must be considered. Which isn't to say that speech doesn't deserve broad protections, of course.

throwanem 9y ago
I agree that I could've been more clear in my prior comment. Here's one in which I more precisely formulated the argument I'm trying to make here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14489045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14489045
- openasocket 9y ago
  That's more clear, but you're still talking in pretty broad generalities. Let's focus on the concrete case here: if you were Harvard staff, and people were posting these things on your incoming freshman forum, what actions would you take? I get your point on proportionality of response, but it's not clear what you think would be a fitting response to this incident.
  - throwanem 9y ago
    Sure, let's do that. Leaving aside all questions of whether or not this falls within Harvard's disciplinary remit - we'll assume that it does - I would have these students begin their academic careers at the school on disciplinary probation, which I gather is contemplated within its policies on maintaining an acceptable standard of conduct among students. Disciplinary probation, from what I've been able to find in a cursory examination of Harvard's public website, also provides formal grounds for more decisive action should the unacceptable conduct persist. That seems to me a reasonable middle ground between on the one hand doing nothing, which I agree would be a highly questionable decision even from the purely cynical perspective that anyone accepted to Harvard may reasonably be expected not to violate the eleventh commandment in such damnfool fashion and if they don't already know that then they better get on learning - and, on the other hand, rescinding these prospective students' acceptance, with the concomitant potentially very significant impairment of their lifelong prospects, on the basis of they posted some tasteless images to a private Facebook group.
    - openasocket 9y ago
      OK, I think I understand your position better then, and largely agree. I'm curious: could you imagine a situation where expulsion would be warranted for these students? Like if they continue to engage in this behavior after being put on disciplinary probation?
      - throwanem 9y ago
        Oh, certainly! That's what "disciplinary probation" means - it makes a clear statement that what they've been doing doesn't fly in the society they aspire to join, and gives them an opportunity to demonstrate that they've grasped this and are willing to behave themselves accordingly - or, conversely, that even having had the limits of their desired pale made clear, they scruple not to transgress further.

throwanem 9y ago

I agree that I could've been more clear in my prior comment. Here's one in which I more precisely formulated the argument I'm trying to make here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14489045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14489045

openasocket 9y ago
That's more clear, but you're still talking in pretty broad generalities. Let's focus on the concrete case here: if you were Harvard staff, and people were posting these things on your incoming freshman forum, what actions would you take? I get your point on proportionality of response, but it's not clear what you think would be a fitting response to this incident.
- throwanem 9y ago
  Sure, let's do that. Leaving aside all questions of whether or not this falls within Harvard's disciplinary remit - we'll assume that it does - I would have these students begin their academic careers at the school on disciplinary probation, which I gather is contemplated within its policies on maintaining an acceptable standard of conduct among students. Disciplinary probation, from what I've been able to find in a cursory examination of Harvard's public website, also provides formal grounds for more decisive action should the unacceptable conduct persist. That seems to me a reasonable middle ground between on the one hand doing nothing, which I agree would be a highly questionable decision even from the purely cynical perspective that anyone accepted to Harvard may reasonably be expected not to violate the eleventh commandment in such damnfool fashion and if they don't already know that then they better get on learning - and, on the other hand, rescinding these prospective students' acceptance, with the concomitant potentially very significant impairment of their lifelong prospects, on the basis of they posted some tasteless images to a private Facebook group.
  - openasocket 9y ago
    OK, I think I understand your position better then, and largely agree. I'm curious: could you imagine a situation where expulsion would be warranted for these students? Like if they continue to engage in this behavior after being put on disciplinary probation?
    - throwanem 9y ago
      Oh, certainly! That's what "disciplinary probation" means - it makes a clear statement that what they've been doing doesn't fly in the society they aspire to join, and gives them an opportunity to demonstrate that they've grasped this and are willing to behave themselves accordingly - or, conversely, that even having had the limits of their desired pale made clear, they scruple not to transgress further.