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I'm probably around the same age you are, and I have to disagree with you that these kinds of jokes are harmless. For one thing, cultures like this do provide

by nxrabl 9y ago

I'm probably around the same age you are, and I have to disagree with you that these kinds of jokes are harmless. For one thing, cultures like this do provide safe havens to people who actually hold bigoted views 'sincerely'. I've been in IRL conversations that ran along these norms, and it was a really uncomfortable experience, especially as a member of a favorite 4Chan target group. It became fairly obvious over the course of the evening that one of the guys there really had drunk a fair bit of the 4Chan kool-aid, but how can you call him out when everyone is cracking the same jokes? Few things shut down open exchange of ideas faster than than the thought that the person you're talking to fundamentally doesn't respect you, because of who you are. But that's not even the real problem I have with this kind of in-group offense culture - the real problem is that no one is ever as self-aware as they think they are. What you say shapes how you think, and then how you act, in ways we may never be consciously aware of. The students Harvard produces are going to end up in board rooms, courtrooms, and halls of power of all kinds all over the country; I expect them to be disciplined thinkers both academically and socially, who take these kinds of issues with the seriousness they deserve, not trollface memesters hiding their intellectual laziness behind image macros.

ziggysak 9y ago
To your first point: It's certainly immoral to be a true bigot, but it's more immoral to silence dark humor simply because of the one individual who believes it. In fact, I would argue that attempting to stifle these individuals is what amplifies their tendency to hold bigoted views. For example, if you're in an in-real-life group conversation and you're all friends and you're roasting another friend for something he did, it's completely fine. But once someone goes too far and begins insulting him sincerely, you punish the person who made the insult, not the group. As to your second point, I don't know why you think people who enjoy memes are somehow intellectually lazy. I don't really see how your logic works here as memes are simply jokes transmitted via the internet. Are you implying that anyone who makes jokes or enjoys dark comedy has to be intellectually lazy?
- nxrabl 9y ago
  More immoral to silence bigotry than to be a bigot? I find that hard to accept. At the legal level, sure, no one should be prosecuted for being a dick. But that isn't what we're discussing here, we're talking about setting the tone of a community of people, in a way that maximizes both everyone's enjoyment and the amount of stuff they can get done. Tolerating bigotry fatally undermines both of those. As for the bad apples, certainly vilifying an individual for their opinions is way more likely to make them double down in righteous indignation, and ideally there'd be a more compassionate way to engage people like that in conversation, but at the very least we can prevent them spreading their ideas in fora we control. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good meme as much as the next millenial. But there are memes and there are memes. You seem to be implying that "beep beep lettuce" and Pepe wearing a Nazi uniform are equivalent to one another. And yes, by the definition of "dark comedy" we're using here, it is lazy. Everyone knows where the boundaries of generally accepted good taste are. There's no skill or wit involved in breaching them. You mention Dave Chappelle elsewhere in this thread; if you look at him, or Mel Brooks, or other 'great' dark comedians, all of the shock there is in the service of making some larger point about society. And sure it doesn't always work, but by your own argument there's not even a semblance of that kind of intent in 'dark meme comedy'. If all a joke is trying to do is give its audience a fleeting thrill of transgression, that's a pretty low form of humor.
  - ziggysak 9y ago
    I think we just have different views on how to approach bigotry. We both can agree that it is a black mark on our society and we should overcome it as a culture. However, where we disagree is how to do it. I see the current climate of "preventing the spread of bigoted ideas" as creating what we know as the alt-right. If you check 4chan's /pol/, you will see an incredible amount of people admit to becoming alt-right because "so many snowflakes are always so offended and call me names". If, however, we as a society can more tolerate dark humor and bigoted comments, the bigots either stop talking or evolve to accept more tolerant views. This article as whole is perfect fuel for the alt-right to say "liberals are trying to control everything, even jokes". To your second point: Pepe wearing a Nazi uniform is not dark comedy. It's racism. They're using memes to further their own ideology, as opposed to the Harvard students who were simply making fun of the offensive nature of the jokes. Thirdly, I truly don't care for whether or not it's high or low humor. All I'm looking at is intent and whether or not an individual is actively desiring to inflict damage on another group of people. Alt-right memes do this, while the Harvard kids would be the first to admit they were simply making jokes who were not hurting anyone other than the people who decided to be offended by them.

by nxrabl 9y ago

ziggysak 9y ago

To your first point: It's certainly immoral to be a true bigot, but it's more immoral to silence dark humor simply because of the one individual who believes it. In fact, I would argue that attempting to stifle these individuals is what amplifies their tendency to hold bigoted views. For example, if you're in an in-real-life group conversation and you're all friends and you're roasting another friend for something he did, it's completely fine. But once someone goes too far and begins insulting him sincerely, you punish the person who made the insult, not the group. As to your second point, I don't know why you think people who enjoy memes are somehow intellectually lazy. I don't really see how your logic works here as memes are simply jokes transmitted via the internet. Are you implying that anyone who makes jokes or enjoys dark comedy has to be intellectually lazy?

nxrabl 9y ago
More immoral to silence bigotry than to be a bigot? I find that hard to accept. At the legal level, sure, no one should be prosecuted for being a dick. But that isn't what we're discussing here, we're talking about setting the tone of a community of people, in a way that maximizes both everyone's enjoyment and the amount of stuff they can get done. Tolerating bigotry fatally undermines both of those. As for the bad apples, certainly vilifying an individual for their opinions is way more likely to make them double down in righteous indignation, and ideally there'd be a more compassionate way to engage people like that in conversation, but at the very least we can prevent them spreading their ideas in fora we control. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good meme as much as the next millenial. But there are memes and there are memes. You seem to be implying that "beep beep lettuce" and Pepe wearing a Nazi uniform are equivalent to one another. And yes, by the definition of "dark comedy" we're using here, it is lazy. Everyone knows where the boundaries of generally accepted good taste are. There's no skill or wit involved in breaching them. You mention Dave Chappelle elsewhere in this thread; if you look at him, or Mel Brooks, or other 'great' dark comedians, all of the shock there is in the service of making some larger point about society. And sure it doesn't always work, but by your own argument there's not even a semblance of that kind of intent in 'dark meme comedy'. If all a joke is trying to do is give its audience a fleeting thrill of transgression, that's a pretty low form of humor.
- ziggysak 9y ago
  I think we just have different views on how to approach bigotry. We both can agree that it is a black mark on our society and we should overcome it as a culture. However, where we disagree is how to do it. I see the current climate of "preventing the spread of bigoted ideas" as creating what we know as the alt-right. If you check 4chan's /pol/, you will see an incredible amount of people admit to becoming alt-right because "so many snowflakes are always so offended and call me names". If, however, we as a society can more tolerate dark humor and bigoted comments, the bigots either stop talking or evolve to accept more tolerant views. This article as whole is perfect fuel for the alt-right to say "liberals are trying to control everything, even jokes". To your second point: Pepe wearing a Nazi uniform is not dark comedy. It's racism. They're using memes to further their own ideology, as opposed to the Harvard students who were simply making fun of the offensive nature of the jokes. Thirdly, I truly don't care for whether or not it's high or low humor. All I'm looking at is intent and whether or not an individual is actively desiring to inflict damage on another group of people. Alt-right memes do this, while the Harvard kids would be the first to admit they were simply making jokes who were not hurting anyone other than the people who decided to be offended by them.