4 ms·

Because telemetry is potentially not only the core dumps and performance metrics, but also all sorts of potentially sensitive information - like a data derived

Because telemetry is potentially not only the core dumps and performance metrics, but also all sorts of potentially sensitive information - like a data derived from the user input (keyboard , voice or pen - this data is said to be anonymized but AFAIK no one had audited this) or list of installed applications. Knowing that something is crashing or performing badly is one thing, knowing what I'm doing with my computer is another. Telemetry can be done right by letting end-user to see an example of the data that's going to be sent and then also audit the actual reports that were sent. Transcribed into a human-readable format with some comments about what the values mean - I can see the binary data myself, thanks. And a way to opt out if the data is found to be actually sensitive. Basically, an opt-out switch and "sure, but give me a full transparency report" mode that a "power user" can optionally access if they happen to care. This is rarely the case, and not the case with Windows.

rincebrain 9y ago
While I am (probably) just as against this kind of opaque bulk data aggregation, there is an argument to be made that they could be analyzing the data you provide on their end and storing the result (e.g. "how many users did X" is not a question you could anonymize on the end user machine, but they still might discard anything other than perhaps a hash to prevent duplicates, and thereby not be able to answer the question of who said what later.) I agree with the desire for complete transparency in data shared, but eventually this will run afoul of a number of practices which rely on cat-and-mouse games where one side doesn't have complete information (an obvious example being precisely what sorts of data Windows Defender uses/sends for malware found by heuristic, presuming it doesn't just ship the entire binary off), to say nothing of the conspiracy theories that would arise every time they ever added some kind of data collection. I don't have a good answer for this friction in general - complete transparency would only fly until a piece of malware that circumvented every heuristic and strict rule caused a major incident, whereas nearly complete opacity is where we are now. (There's also the conflict of their lack of recurring revenue for Windows 10, which is why I'd anticipate them eventually at least floating the option to disable the "end user data as payment" harvesting for an annual fee, but...)
- slowmovintarget 9y ago
  Except the "new Microsoft" has publicly lamented the fact that they aren't capturing the same personal information for targeted advertising that Google and Facebook were. They've also stated that Windows 10 would "fix" that. Telemetry that captures keystrokes and pumps line-in audio back to home base was the way to do this.
  - yodon 9y ago
    Citation please
    - slowmovintarget 9y ago
      http://www.businessinsider.com/satya-nadella-microsoft-interview-with-business-insider-2016-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/satya-nadella-microsoft-inter... https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar16/index.html https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar16/index.html https://www.fastcompany.com/3064030/satya-nadella-on-microsofts-new-age-of-intelligence https://www.fastcompany.com/3064030/satya-nadella-on-microso... I couldn't find the older articles about how Ballmer was complaining that they were missing out on the personal data gold rush that Google and Facebook were experiencing.
      - yodon 9y ago
        Those are interesting links but they don't support your assertion that Microsoft's big envy is for the kind of ad targeting data FB and google posses. The only related content I saw were the mentions of Cortana, and Cortana is not just a terrible way to chase advertising dollars, it's actually a way to unseat Google's dominance in tech precisely because it breaks the viability of advertising as a business. Google's entire business is built around selling the presentation of unwanted information around the organic content you want. That works great in a visual medium where the extra information requires no more of your time and only minimally more of your attention. Alexa and Cortana and Siri shift that interaction to audio where it becomes incredibly difficult to insert even a tiny fraction of the surrounding ad content search engines used to deliver visually. Alexa and Cortana and Siri break google's business model because they break the ability to spam customers with ancillary information, and they can do that because neither Amazon nor Apple nor Microsoft derive the bulk of their revenues from ad sales. This is a battle of business models, not a quest for the other guy's business model. So yes, Microsoft is building Cortana, and no, Cortana isn't about becoming an advertising powerhouse it's about blocking their two ad-fueled competitors (the best discussion I'm aware of of google's efforts to fight back against this agent-driven threat to their ad-based business model is [0] ) [0] https://stratechery.com/2016/google-and-the-limits-of-strategy/ https://stratechery.com/2016/google-and-the-limits-of-strate...

rincebrain 9y ago

While I am (probably) just as against this kind of opaque bulk data aggregation, there is an argument to be made that they could be analyzing the data you provide on their end and storing the result (e.g. "how many users did X" is not a question you could anonymize on the end user machine, but they still might discard anything other than perhaps a hash to prevent duplicates, and thereby not be able to answer the question of who said what later.) I agree with the desire for complete transparency in data shared, but eventually this will run afoul of a number of practices which rely on cat-and-mouse games where one side doesn't have complete information (an obvious example being precisely what sorts of data Windows Defender uses/sends for malware found by heuristic, presuming it doesn't just ship the entire binary off), to say nothing of the conspiracy theories that would arise every time they ever added some kind of data collection. I don't have a good answer for this friction in general - complete transparency would only fly until a piece of malware that circumvented every heuristic and strict rule caused a major incident, whereas nearly complete opacity is where we are now. (There's also the conflict of their lack of recurring revenue for Windows 10, which is why I'd anticipate them eventually at least floating the option to disable the "end user data as payment" harvesting for an annual fee, but...)

slowmovintarget 9y ago
Except the "new Microsoft" has publicly lamented the fact that they aren't capturing the same personal information for targeted advertising that Google and Facebook were. They've also stated that Windows 10 would "fix" that. Telemetry that captures keystrokes and pumps line-in audio back to home base was the way to do this.
- yodon 9y ago
  Citation please
  - slowmovintarget 9y ago
    http://www.businessinsider.com/satya-nadella-microsoft-interview-with-business-insider-2016-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/satya-nadella-microsoft-inter... https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar16/index.html https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar16/index.html https://www.fastcompany.com/3064030/satya-nadella-on-microsofts-new-age-of-intelligence https://www.fastcompany.com/3064030/satya-nadella-on-microso... I couldn't find the older articles about how Ballmer was complaining that they were missing out on the personal data gold rush that Google and Facebook were experiencing.
    - yodon 9y ago
      Those are interesting links but they don't support your assertion that Microsoft's big envy is for the kind of ad targeting data FB and google posses. The only related content I saw were the mentions of Cortana, and Cortana is not just a terrible way to chase advertising dollars, it's actually a way to unseat Google's dominance in tech precisely because it breaks the viability of advertising as a business. Google's entire business is built around selling the presentation of unwanted information around the organic content you want. That works great in a visual medium where the extra information requires no more of your time and only minimally more of your attention. Alexa and Cortana and Siri shift that interaction to audio where it becomes incredibly difficult to insert even a tiny fraction of the surrounding ad content search engines used to deliver visually. Alexa and Cortana and Siri break google's business model because they break the ability to spam customers with ancillary information, and they can do that because neither Amazon nor Apple nor Microsoft derive the bulk of their revenues from ad sales. This is a battle of business models, not a quest for the other guy's business model. So yes, Microsoft is building Cortana, and no, Cortana isn't about becoming an advertising powerhouse it's about blocking their two ad-fueled competitors (the best discussion I'm aware of of google's efforts to fight back against this agent-driven threat to their ad-based business model is [0] ) [0] https://stratechery.com/2016/google-and-the-limits-of-strategy/ https://stratechery.com/2016/google-and-the-limits-of-strate...