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> So your mentor seems to be right, even though what he's suggesting is not 100% ethical: if you read your contract you'll see that all of your software related

> So your mentor seems to be right, even though what he's suggesting is not 100% ethical: if you read your contract you'll see that all of your software related ideas are property of Google. It is most definitely not unethical to not comply with a bullshit authoritarian contract like that.

posguy 9y ago
Wouldn't that ethically be wage theft? The employer is claiming ownership of your ideas when your off the clock, thus they should be paying you overtime if they want ownership of those ideas. Nevermind the salary/overtime exempt scam that has been popular as of late, which is also wage theft.
throwaway-1209 9y ago
I agree with you in principle, but I've seen shit you wouldn't believe when there's a few million dollars at stake: otherwise fine, ethical, upstanding human beings can turn into the worst weasels you can imagine if you don't hold the sword of legal retribution over their heads to assure their good faith. You won't quite understand that until you actually work on something you have a vested interest in succeeding, as in, a substantial financial stake, not some bullshit koolaid they feed you as you're slaving away on an irrelevant product #24554 at a Megacorp Inc.
- posguy 9y ago
  Are they being properly compensated for their time? By that, I mean is the employee being directly compensated for all of the non-work hours the company is claiming ownership of ideas over? Otherwise, if its a classic "Here is a salary and package, we own all your relevant ideas from here on" deal, I'd say that is highly unethical behavior on the company's part, and is a case of wage theft. Should the employee be barred from moonlighting too? Not unless the company is willing to pay for said time.
  - throwaway-1209 9y ago
    If you don't like compensation the door is open, you can leave. Look, I agree with you in principle, but I'm now a large shareholder in a business, so I see the other side of the argument too. The goal isn't really to stop anyone from pursuing something unrelated, an idea that's mostly theirs. The goal is to avoid Levandovsky-style backstabbing. Especially for small companies, this can be fatal.
    - posguy 9y ago
      So you agree with me in principle, but when it comes to action you feel we should fuck over the worker in the name of profit? To quote Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom;" https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....
      - kmicklas 9y ago
        It's the same bootlicking mentality behind both of these problems.
        posguy 9y ago
        Pretty much, I'd much rather talk with a MAGA than a liberal, despite the similarity in views I may share with said liberal. The former I can often have a sensical conversation with and perhaps change their mind on some issues, the latter feeling an outright opposition to taking action or altering their views.
      - throwaway-1209 9y ago
yongjik 9y ago
This links sums up nicely why that's the only practical way for software companies: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-projects/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-pr... > Your game designer works for a year and invents 7 games. At the end of the year, she sues you, claiming that she owns 4 of them, because those particular games were invented between 5pm and 9am, when she wasn’t on duty. > Ooops. That’s not what you meant. You wanted to pay her for all the games that she invents, and you recognize that the actual process of invention for which you are paying her may happen at any time… on weekdays, weekends, in the office, in the cubicle, at home, in the shower, climbing a mountain on vacation. > So before you hire this developer, you agree, “hey listen, I know that inventing happens all the time, and it’s impossible to prove whether you invented something while you were sitting in the chair I supplied in the cubicle I supplied or not. I don’t just want to buy your 9:00-5:00 inventions. I want them all, and I’m going to pay you a nice salary to get them all,” and she agrees to that, so now you want to sign something that says that all her inventions belong to the company for as long as she is employed by the company. > This is where we are by default. This is the standard employment contract for developers, inventors, and researchers. On top of that, Google doesn't give a damn if you're spending some of your 9-5 hours walking around the buildings, surfing the web (or the infamous memegen), hanging out with coworkers at the microkitchen, or working out at the gym. Do you also consider these as unethical behavior by employees? By signing the employment contract, both parties are agreeing that they don't really care about 9-5 and work hours. They want all your brain's output, and they're going to pay for it. If you don't like it, you are free to walk away, but that doesn't make the contract "bullshit authoritarian".
- kmicklas 9y ago
  I feel bad for people with this bootlicker mindset... If I get sued for violating the contract well that sucks for me but I'm certainly not going to feel bad for it.
  - throwaway-1209 9y ago
    Words of a man with not much to lose. Once your net worth is in multiple millions, the calculation will change quite a bit. You will most definitely not want to lose your life's savings on a moral crusade.

posguy 9y ago

Wouldn't that ethically be wage theft? The employer is claiming ownership of your ideas when your off the clock, thus they should be paying you overtime if they want ownership of those ideas. Nevermind the salary/overtime exempt scam that has been popular as of late, which is also wage theft.

throwaway-1209 9y ago

I agree with you in principle, but I've seen shit you wouldn't believe when there's a few million dollars at stake: otherwise fine, ethical, upstanding human beings can turn into the worst weasels you can imagine if you don't hold the sword of legal retribution over their heads to assure their good faith. You won't quite understand that until you actually work on something you have a vested interest in succeeding, as in, a substantial financial stake, not some bullshit koolaid they feed you as you're slaving away on an irrelevant product #24554 at a Megacorp Inc.

posguy 9y ago
Are they being properly compensated for their time? By that, I mean is the employee being directly compensated for all of the non-work hours the company is claiming ownership of ideas over? Otherwise, if its a classic "Here is a salary and package, we own all your relevant ideas from here on" deal, I'd say that is highly unethical behavior on the company's part, and is a case of wage theft. Should the employee be barred from moonlighting too? Not unless the company is willing to pay for said time.
- throwaway-1209 9y ago
  If you don't like compensation the door is open, you can leave. Look, I agree with you in principle, but I'm now a large shareholder in a business, so I see the other side of the argument too. The goal isn't really to stop anyone from pursuing something unrelated, an idea that's mostly theirs. The goal is to avoid Levandovsky-style backstabbing. Especially for small companies, this can be fatal.
  - posguy 9y ago
    So you agree with me in principle, but when it comes to action you feel we should fuck over the worker in the name of profit? To quote Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom;" https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....
    - kmicklas 9y ago
      It's the same bootlicking mentality behind both of these problems.
      - posguy 9y ago
        Pretty much, I'd much rather talk with a MAGA than a liberal, despite the similarity in views I may share with said liberal. The former I can often have a sensical conversation with and perhaps change their mind on some issues, the latter feeling an outright opposition to taking action or altering their views.
    - throwaway-1209 9y ago

yongjik 9y ago

This links sums up nicely why that's the only practical way for software companies: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-projects/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-pr... > Your game designer works for a year and invents 7 games. At the end of the year, she sues you, claiming that she owns 4 of them, because those particular games were invented between 5pm and 9am, when she wasn’t on duty. > Ooops. That’s not what you meant. You wanted to pay her for all the games that she invents, and you recognize that the actual process of invention for which you are paying her may happen at any time… on weekdays, weekends, in the office, in the cubicle, at home, in the shower, climbing a mountain on vacation. > So before you hire this developer, you agree, “hey listen, I know that inventing happens all the time, and it’s impossible to prove whether you invented something while you were sitting in the chair I supplied in the cubicle I supplied or not. I don’t just want to buy your 9:00-5:00 inventions. I want them all, and I’m going to pay you a nice salary to get them all,” and she agrees to that, so now you want to sign something that says that all her inventions belong to the company for as long as she is employed by the company. > This is where we are by default. This is the standard employment contract for developers, inventors, and researchers. On top of that, Google doesn't give a damn if you're spending some of your 9-5 hours walking around the buildings, surfing the web (or the infamous memegen), hanging out with coworkers at the microkitchen, or working out at the gym. Do you also consider these as unethical behavior by employees? By signing the employment contract, both parties are agreeing that they don't really care about 9-5 and work hours. They want all your brain's output, and they're going to pay for it. If you don't like it, you are free to walk away, but that doesn't make the contract "bullshit authoritarian".

kmicklas 9y ago
I feel bad for people with this bootlicker mindset... If I get sued for violating the contract well that sucks for me but I'm certainly not going to feel bad for it.
- throwaway-1209 9y ago
  Words of a man with not much to lose. Once your net worth is in multiple millions, the calculation will change quite a bit. You will most definitely not want to lose your life's savings on a moral crusade.