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> but if I heard my talk was delayed so the conference can be rebalanced / less of a white sausage party, I'd be glad Maybe the solution is to stop being racis

> but if I heard my talk was delayed so the conference can be rebalanced / less of a white sausage party, I'd be glad Maybe the solution is to stop being racist and sexist.

viraptor 9y ago
You seem to imply that being happy to be surrounded with a more gender/race diverse crowd than the typical 90s IT conference is either racist or sexist. I just don't understand that argument.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  Calling something a "white sausage party" is racist and sexist, and if you said something equivalent against women or minorities on-line, you'd end up in a huge shitstorm. This assymetry is a big part of the problem.
  - selllikesybok 9y ago
    This is a common reaction, and it started from a misunderstanding of the terms. I recommend reading https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism And then https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism Of course, it's a complex topic, and there's a lot more great material which would help you get a better understanding. While particularly focused on a specific type of racism in the US, includes a decent 101 on racism generally - https://medium.com/@absurdistwords/how-to-discuss-race-with-black-people-faq-pt-1-2534db9e3409 https://medium.com/@absurdistwords/how-to-discuss-race-with-...
    - julianmarq 9y ago
      If you were going for discrediting calling something "a white-sausage party" as if it were a bad thing isn't racist by linking that, you failed. The very first definition in your own link on racism: > : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race Inherent inferiority, I'd assume, fits within that mind frame. As for sexism, the second definition. > : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex Now you'll start thinking of ways to complaint to the dictionary so that those definitions can be changed in a way that it's only about "minorities", I'm sure.
      - selllikesybok 9y ago
        I'm not sure how saying that a non diverse group is inferior to a diverse group is equivalent to saying that the specific elements making up the non diverse group is inferior? Like, saying all-white is inferior to mixed is not the same as saying white is inferior. Also, do recall usages b and c, and that they are important to consider, and specifically see my third link for better explanation of how.
        julianmarq 9y ago
        > I'm not sure how saying that a non diverse group is inferior to a diverse group is equivalent to saying that the specific elements making up the non diverse group is inferior? That you don't see it is framed as a question. Ok, look at it harder and come back to me when you have an actual answer instead of a question on your own reading capacity. > Like, saying all-white is inferior to mixed is not the same as saying white is inferior. Yes, it is, that's exactly what it is. I'd ask you which mental hoops led you to think it isn't but I know every single one of them will be a fallacy so I won't bother asking. > Also, do recall usages b and c, and that they are important to consider, and specifically see my third link for better explanation of how. You don't get to tell me which definitions to use. And I'm not reading some rant rationalizing why racism and sexism is good based on the target.
        selllikesybok 9y ago
        >That you don't see it is framed as a question. To restate: "I'm not sure how saying that a non diverse group is inferior to a diverse group is equivalent to saying that the specific elements making up the non diverse group is inferior[. Could you please clarify]?" Thought it was implied. Sorry to be unclear. >Yes, it is, that's exactly what it is. I'd ask you which mental hoops led you to think it isn't but I know every single one of them will be a fallacy so I won't bother asking. You haven't added anything here, just restated your original thinking that I don't get. Here's what makes sense to me: 1 + 1 = 2 1 < 2 1 = 1 >You don't get to tell me which definitions to use. And I'm not reading some rant rationalizing why racism and sexism is good based on the target. It's not that there are more than one competing definition. There are several complimentary ones and ignoring the rest does not promote better discussion. If you read the third link, that's so not an accurate assessment of it's contents.
  - ubernostrum 9y ago
    A little while back someone tweeted a series of images, designed to be provocative. They were staged photos of everyday scenes, but with the typical everyday race/gender disparities inverted. For example, a white girl in a store, staring at an aisle of dolls whose skin colors were all nonwhite. Or a row of Asians sitting in chairs and getting pedicures from conventionally-attractive white people on their knees. Was it "racist" to do so? Was the creator of those images "the real racist"? There's a quote that goes around a lot, allegedly from Ruth Bader Ginsburg, about how many women should serve on the Supreme Court, where she says 9. Since, after all, the Court was all-male for a long time and nobody seemed to think it was a problem, that must mean an all-female Court would be just as acceptable. Is it "sexist" of her to say so? Is she "the real sexist"? Also, you should either see a doctor or sign up to be a fighter pilot, because the speed of your knee-jerk reflex in jumping to one of the most tired and predictable clichés of these discussions ("You're the REAL racist/sexist here!") is impressive.
  - QuantumYeti 9y ago
    I don't fine the usage of the word "white" in that sentence to be racist. The phrase "sausage party" is derogatory slang for a group of men. If he said "white group of men", that wouldn't be racist or sexist, so "white sausage party" could only possibly be considered sexist. And I agree, asymmetry is part of the problem. As a white male, there's not a lot of derogatory terms regarding my skin color/sex that I'll get upset about. But there are tons of derogatory terms for minorities and historically oppressed groups of people where those words will carry a weight that I've never experienced.
- muninn_ 9y ago
  Because at the same time you're implying that being surrounded by a specific skin color or sex is undesirable. That's racism and sexism. That's like me going to Japan and getting upset because I went to a conference and everybody was Japanese and there wasn't any diversity.
  - viraptor 9y ago
    No, that's a false dichotomy. The fact I prefer a mix of cultures, doesn't mean I'm against whatever conference you'd like to see (unless you were explicitly excluding people, that is). I'm not even saying staying in the monoculture of your own origin is bad, if that's what you want to do. And btw, East Asia has some awesomely diverse conferences :)
    - muninn_ 9y ago
      I'm not saying that you can't have a preference. The problem is that, if you prefer a monoculture than you're labeled a racist. So if you say: "I prefer a mix of cultures at xyz conference" that is ok because the mix is seen as good. But if you say: "I prefer only Han Chinese at this conference" you're a racist (actually I don't think you'd be labeled a racist, I think you would only be labeled a racist if you said white people). Personally, I also don't care who anybody prefers to associate with. What bothers me is that it's immediately racism if you're white. It's got to the point where I've stopped really caring about diversity. Sensory overload with how I'm an evil white man taking away everybody's jobs and how I'm so privileged. Meanwhile somehow white women aren't privileged? Meanwhile some black woman that went to Harvard had such a struggle? All people do is look at skin color. You (not you specifically) don't know what I've been through. Sorry for the poorly-worded rant. I'm just growing frustrated with stories like these. If people stopped flipping out and calling everything fascist and racist maybe we wouldn't be so divided.
      - selllikesybok 9y ago
        Maybe if people stopped flipping out a out having to think about injustice and their relative complicity in institutional inequality... Like, freaking out about having to think about it. About not being able to sail through life without ever having to.
- thescribe 9y ago
  If the makeup matters enough to cause an emotion then yes you are racist/sexist.

> but if I heard my talk was delayed so the conference can be rebalanced / less of a white sausage party, I'd be glad Maybe the solution is to stop being racist and sexist.

viraptor 9y ago

You seem to imply that being happy to be surrounded with a more gender/race diverse crowd than the typical 90s IT conference is either racist or sexist. I just don't understand that argument.

TeMPOraL 9y ago
Calling something a "white sausage party" is racist and sexist, and if you said something equivalent against women or minorities on-line, you'd end up in a huge shitstorm. This assymetry is a big part of the problem.
- selllikesybok 9y ago
  This is a common reaction, and it started from a misunderstanding of the terms. I recommend reading https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism And then https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism Of course, it's a complex topic, and there's a lot more great material which would help you get a better understanding. While particularly focused on a specific type of racism in the US, includes a decent 101 on racism generally - https://medium.com/@absurdistwords/how-to-discuss-race-with-black-people-faq-pt-1-2534db9e3409 https://medium.com/@absurdistwords/how-to-discuss-race-with-...
  - julianmarq 9y ago
    If you were going for discrediting calling something "a white-sausage party" as if it were a bad thing isn't racist by linking that, you failed. The very first definition in your own link on racism: > : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race Inherent inferiority, I'd assume, fits within that mind frame. As for sexism, the second definition. > : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex Now you'll start thinking of ways to complaint to the dictionary so that those definitions can be changed in a way that it's only about "minorities", I'm sure.
    - selllikesybok 9y ago
      I'm not sure how saying that a non diverse group is inferior to a diverse group is equivalent to saying that the specific elements making up the non diverse group is inferior? Like, saying all-white is inferior to mixed is not the same as saying white is inferior. Also, do recall usages b and c, and that they are important to consider, and specifically see my third link for better explanation of how.
      - julianmarq 9y ago
        > I'm not sure how saying that a non diverse group is inferior to a diverse group is equivalent to saying that the specific elements making up the non diverse group is inferior? That you don't see it is framed as a question. Ok, look at it harder and come back to me when you have an actual answer instead of a question on your own reading capacity. > Like, saying all-white is inferior to mixed is not the same as saying white is inferior. Yes, it is, that's exactly what it is. I'd ask you which mental hoops led you to think it isn't but I know every single one of them will be a fallacy so I won't bother asking. > Also, do recall usages b and c, and that they are important to consider, and specifically see my third link for better explanation of how. You don't get to tell me which definitions to use. And I'm not reading some rant rationalizing why racism and sexism is good based on the target.
        selllikesybok 9y ago
        >That you don't see it is framed as a question. To restate: "I'm not sure how saying that a non diverse group is inferior to a diverse group is equivalent to saying that the specific elements making up the non diverse group is inferior[. Could you please clarify]?" Thought it was implied. Sorry to be unclear. >Yes, it is, that's exactly what it is. I'd ask you which mental hoops led you to think it isn't but I know every single one of them will be a fallacy so I won't bother asking. You haven't added anything here, just restated your original thinking that I don't get. Here's what makes sense to me: 1 + 1 = 2 1 < 2 1 = 1 >You don't get to tell me which definitions to use. And I'm not reading some rant rationalizing why racism and sexism is good based on the target. It's not that there are more than one competing definition. There are several complimentary ones and ignoring the rest does not promote better discussion. If you read the third link, that's so not an accurate assessment of it's contents.
- ubernostrum 9y ago
  A little while back someone tweeted a series of images, designed to be provocative. They were staged photos of everyday scenes, but with the typical everyday race/gender disparities inverted. For example, a white girl in a store, staring at an aisle of dolls whose skin colors were all nonwhite. Or a row of Asians sitting in chairs and getting pedicures from conventionally-attractive white people on their knees. Was it "racist" to do so? Was the creator of those images "the real racist"? There's a quote that goes around a lot, allegedly from Ruth Bader Ginsburg, about how many women should serve on the Supreme Court, where she says 9. Since, after all, the Court was all-male for a long time and nobody seemed to think it was a problem, that must mean an all-female Court would be just as acceptable. Is it "sexist" of her to say so? Is she "the real sexist"? Also, you should either see a doctor or sign up to be a fighter pilot, because the speed of your knee-jerk reflex in jumping to one of the most tired and predictable clichés of these discussions ("You're the REAL racist/sexist here!") is impressive.
- QuantumYeti 9y ago
  I don't fine the usage of the word "white" in that sentence to be racist. The phrase "sausage party" is derogatory slang for a group of men. If he said "white group of men", that wouldn't be racist or sexist, so "white sausage party" could only possibly be considered sexist. And I agree, asymmetry is part of the problem. As a white male, there's not a lot of derogatory terms regarding my skin color/sex that I'll get upset about. But there are tons of derogatory terms for minorities and historically oppressed groups of people where those words will carry a weight that I've never experienced.
muninn_ 9y ago
Because at the same time you're implying that being surrounded by a specific skin color or sex is undesirable. That's racism and sexism. That's like me going to Japan and getting upset because I went to a conference and everybody was Japanese and there wasn't any diversity.
- viraptor 9y ago
  No, that's a false dichotomy. The fact I prefer a mix of cultures, doesn't mean I'm against whatever conference you'd like to see (unless you were explicitly excluding people, that is). I'm not even saying staying in the monoculture of your own origin is bad, if that's what you want to do. And btw, East Asia has some awesomely diverse conferences :)
  - muninn_ 9y ago
    I'm not saying that you can't have a preference. The problem is that, if you prefer a monoculture than you're labeled a racist. So if you say: "I prefer a mix of cultures at xyz conference" that is ok because the mix is seen as good. But if you say: "I prefer only Han Chinese at this conference" you're a racist (actually I don't think you'd be labeled a racist, I think you would only be labeled a racist if you said white people). Personally, I also don't care who anybody prefers to associate with. What bothers me is that it's immediately racism if you're white. It's got to the point where I've stopped really caring about diversity. Sensory overload with how I'm an evil white man taking away everybody's jobs and how I'm so privileged. Meanwhile somehow white women aren't privileged? Meanwhile some black woman that went to Harvard had such a struggle? All people do is look at skin color. You (not you specifically) don't know what I've been through. Sorry for the poorly-worded rant. I'm just growing frustrated with stories like these. If people stopped flipping out and calling everything fascist and racist maybe we wouldn't be so divided.
    - selllikesybok 9y ago
      Maybe if people stopped flipping out a out having to think about injustice and their relative complicity in institutional inequality... Like, freaking out about having to think about it. About not being able to sail through life without ever having to.
thescribe 9y ago
If the makeup matters enough to cause an emotion then yes you are racist/sexist.