6 ms·

I've always got mixed feelings on stories like this. On one hand, it's a heartwarming story of a man breaking through barriers to achieve success from desperat

I've always got mixed feelings on stories like this. On one hand, it's a heartwarming story of a man breaking through barriers to achieve success from desperate beginnings. Kind of an American dream story, really. But if everyone with those qualities leaves the community, the rest of the people are helpless and will be mired in poverty forever. It's difficult, morally, to balance the benefit gained by the guy who took the action, compared to the loss his community suffered by his departure. In any case, I think this sort of thing is a significant reason why countries don't develop. Change always starts from a small group of changemakers - if those people all just emigrate, nothing will ever change. Migration since the 60's has become a giant IQ-sorting system and that's having huge consequences on all sides. And this never seems to get discussed, oddly.

subterfudge44 9y ago
> to balance the benefit gained by the guy who took the action, compared to the loss his community suffered by his departure. Not true. Any resource when used efficiently benefits whole of humanity. It is better if a boy from Ghana comes to USA and invents a vaccine to some disease than he stays back as just a doctor in this village. People when they travel it is not an isolated incident. They tell their friends about the reality of other nations and then they aspire to be like other nations. We see it in India and China a lot.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
whack 9y ago
I understand what you're trying to get at, but consider that most under-developed countries fail not because of talent shortage, but because of systemic problems that prevent them from harnessing the talent that they do have. The author is an excellent example of this. If he had stayed in Ghana, he would have never received the education that he needs to fulfill his potential. He would have gone through his entire life, a shadow of the person that he's capable of being. Thankfully, because he was lucky enough to fall in love with an American citizen, he was able to come here and turn his life around. If he now uses even a fraction of talents and future income to help his home country, he would already make more of a difference than if he had stayed in Ghana his whole life.
tptacek 9y ago
It is not at all clear in the research that economic migration is an IQ sorting system. It's a question that gets studied specifically, because it speaks to the malleability of and environmental influence on intelligence. That doesn't make a broader version of your argument false. Migration may very well be --- intuitively seems probable to be --- a system that makes the rich countries richer and the poor countries poorer.
nnd 9y ago
> Migration since the 60's has become a giant IQ-sorting system and that's having huge consequences on all sides. And this never seems to get discussed, oddly. Not in the US, where there is virtually nothing except family-based migration.
- 1024core 9y ago
  Wait, what? Every year at least 65,000 skilled workers (and actually many more) migrate from other parts of the world to settle down in the US. Sure, there's a lot of family-based migration too, but there's also a lot of talent-based migration. Countries like Canada have a 'points' system that specifically recruits talent and qualifications.
  - nnd 9y ago
    Those 65,000 workers you are referring to are on H1B visa which might not necessarily require them to be high-skilled. This visa is also a lottery. When I think about skill based migration, there should be a merit-based program available, point-based system implemented in Australia, Canada, and some European countries are a good option.
    - 1024core 9y ago
      > Those 65,000 workers you are referring to are on H1B visa which might not necessarily require them to be high-skilled. Looks like you have no experience with the program; I do, as I was on H1-B at one time. It is solely for the purposes of hiring people for jobs for which there are no Americans available. By definition, it's for highly skilled people. > This visa is also a lottery. Again, a misconception and too much reliance on the word "lottery". It is a lottery, but among all the applicants, who are (as per the paragraph above) highly skilled.
solatic 9y ago
> if everyone with those qualities leaves the community, the rest of the people are helpless and will be mired in poverty forever... In any case, I think this sort of thing is a significant reason why countries don't develop. Change always starts from a small group of changemakers - if those people all just emigrate, nothing will ever change. Third world countries don't develop not because of brain drain but because of systemic corruption and protection of domestic uncompetitive/unproductive interests. The political leaders of these countries exploit their citizens as members of governments without proper controls to prevent such exploitation from happening. The citizens of these third-world governments are victims of governments which do not serve their interests. Shifting blame onto enterprising people whose ambitions lie in their chosen profession and not in politics is guilty of blaming the victim and argues against his right of individual agency.
rakkhi 9y ago
Well yes anything to do with IQ cannot be discussed in the west. It is self censorship at its best. If you were a betting man you would say this guy is on the very right of the bell curve for intelligence on his population. Can't just extrapolate applying the same environmental factors and get the same result for others in his country. The genetic basis for IQ is much resisted in the west but has strong evidence via twin and adoption studies.
- partycoder 9y ago
  The problem with the genetic basis for IQ argument is that not all genetic markers leading to higher IQ have been discovered. There is not a single way to evolve intelligence, and there's substantial evidence in nature for that (e.g: mammalian neocortex and the avian nidopallium evolved independently with similar goals). Then, there are many aspects behind IQ. Take one kid, make him drink barely clean water with parasites, feed him poorly with non iodized salt, expose him to lead poisoning, and don't provide significant stimulation from an early age and his IQ will be much lower than a kid that didn't suffer from those issues, maybe even the same kid. Most of the 20+ points of IQ gap comes in African countries comes from those issues. The problem is that racists have used that data out of its context to substantiate a genetic basis for racism. But of course they're wrong about that. Just like they're wrong about everything involving a minimum amount of education and common sense. I strongly suggest you stop following low IQ hate-speech idiots like the alt-right.
  - SamReidHughes 9y ago
    That's a nice story, but no numbers. Why would the environment be "most", i.e. 50-100% of the gap? How do you know it's not 30% or 130%?
    - partycoder 9y ago
      I will not start a discussion around the validity of research because that conversation belongs in academic peer review and at this level it is pointless and it will end nowhere. But feel free to look for studies on these topics and form your own opinion: - Proper nutrition helps IQ. Iodine consumption helps IQ. - Poor health conditions, including presence of sub-saharan parasites, lowers IQ. - Lead poisoning (e.g: lead-based paint and mining activities) lowers IQ.
MarkMc 9y ago
Keep in mind that this young man will most likely support his family in Ghana by giving money to his brothers and sisters and acting as mentor to his nieces and nephews. Here's a hypothetical question: Suppose there is a charitable foundation that identifies 100 poor, smart, hard-working young people in Ghana. Of these 100, the foundation randomly chooses 50 to receive a scholarship to immigrate to a rich country like the US or Germany and receive a university education. Ten years after they graduate, the foundation asks an independent person to make an assessment of 'contribution to Ghanaian society' for (a) each family member of each graduate; (b) each individual who did not receive the scholarship and each of his/her family members. If the result is that the estimated total contribution by group (a) is bigger than group (b), would that change your mind about emigration being a loss to the community?
twblalock 9y ago
> Migration since the 60's has become a giant IQ-sorting system and that's having huge consequences on all sides. And this never seems to get discussed, oddly. It's discussed a lot. It's where the term "brain drain" comes from. Hundreds of studies have been done on the subject, many of which are linked on the wikipedia page for "human capital flight," which is the academic term for what you're talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_capital_flight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_capital_flight
Jare 9y ago
> It's difficult, morally, to balance the benefit gained by the guy who took the action, compared to the loss his community suffered by his departure I can't make a moral argument why he is more obligated to sacrifice himself for that country, than anyone else in the world. Being born there is a pure lottery and has very little to do with morals. If anything, the moral expectation would be on the people in many other parts of the world, who spend most of their (our) lives in relative comfort, to devote some real time and effort helping there.

subterfudge44 9y ago

> to balance the benefit gained by the guy who took the action, compared to the loss his community suffered by his departure. Not true. Any resource when used efficiently benefits whole of humanity. It is better if a boy from Ghana comes to USA and invents a vaccine to some disease than he stays back as just a doctor in this village. People when they travel it is not an isolated incident. They tell their friends about the reality of other nations and then they aspire to be like other nations. We see it in India and China a lot.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

whack 9y ago

I understand what you're trying to get at, but consider that most under-developed countries fail not because of talent shortage, but because of systemic problems that prevent them from harnessing the talent that they do have. The author is an excellent example of this. If he had stayed in Ghana, he would have never received the education that he needs to fulfill his potential. He would have gone through his entire life, a shadow of the person that he's capable of being. Thankfully, because he was lucky enough to fall in love with an American citizen, he was able to come here and turn his life around. If he now uses even a fraction of talents and future income to help his home country, he would already make more of a difference than if he had stayed in Ghana his whole life.

tptacek 9y ago

It is not at all clear in the research that economic migration is an IQ sorting system. It's a question that gets studied specifically, because it speaks to the malleability of and environmental influence on intelligence. That doesn't make a broader version of your argument false. Migration may very well be --- intuitively seems probable to be --- a system that makes the rich countries richer and the poor countries poorer.

nnd 9y ago

> Migration since the 60's has become a giant IQ-sorting system and that's having huge consequences on all sides. And this never seems to get discussed, oddly. Not in the US, where there is virtually nothing except family-based migration.

1024core 9y ago
Wait, what? Every year at least 65,000 skilled workers (and actually many more) migrate from other parts of the world to settle down in the US. Sure, there's a lot of family-based migration too, but there's also a lot of talent-based migration. Countries like Canada have a 'points' system that specifically recruits talent and qualifications.
- nnd 9y ago
  Those 65,000 workers you are referring to are on H1B visa which might not necessarily require them to be high-skilled. This visa is also a lottery. When I think about skill based migration, there should be a merit-based program available, point-based system implemented in Australia, Canada, and some European countries are a good option.
  - 1024core 9y ago
    > Those 65,000 workers you are referring to are on H1B visa which might not necessarily require them to be high-skilled. Looks like you have no experience with the program; I do, as I was on H1-B at one time. It is solely for the purposes of hiring people for jobs for which there are no Americans available. By definition, it's for highly skilled people. > This visa is also a lottery. Again, a misconception and too much reliance on the word "lottery". It is a lottery, but among all the applicants, who are (as per the paragraph above) highly skilled.

solatic 9y ago

> if everyone with those qualities leaves the community, the rest of the people are helpless and will be mired in poverty forever... In any case, I think this sort of thing is a significant reason why countries don't develop. Change always starts from a small group of changemakers - if those people all just emigrate, nothing will ever change. Third world countries don't develop not because of brain drain but because of systemic corruption and protection of domestic uncompetitive/unproductive interests. The political leaders of these countries exploit their citizens as members of governments without proper controls to prevent such exploitation from happening. The citizens of these third-world governments are victims of governments which do not serve their interests. Shifting blame onto enterprising people whose ambitions lie in their chosen profession and not in politics is guilty of blaming the victim and argues against his right of individual agency.

rakkhi 9y ago

Well yes anything to do with IQ cannot be discussed in the west. It is self censorship at its best. If you were a betting man you would say this guy is on the very right of the bell curve for intelligence on his population. Can't just extrapolate applying the same environmental factors and get the same result for others in his country. The genetic basis for IQ is much resisted in the west but has strong evidence via twin and adoption studies.

partycoder 9y ago
The problem with the genetic basis for IQ argument is that not all genetic markers leading to higher IQ have been discovered. There is not a single way to evolve intelligence, and there's substantial evidence in nature for that (e.g: mammalian neocortex and the avian nidopallium evolved independently with similar goals). Then, there are many aspects behind IQ. Take one kid, make him drink barely clean water with parasites, feed him poorly with non iodized salt, expose him to lead poisoning, and don't provide significant stimulation from an early age and his IQ will be much lower than a kid that didn't suffer from those issues, maybe even the same kid. Most of the 20+ points of IQ gap comes in African countries comes from those issues. The problem is that racists have used that data out of its context to substantiate a genetic basis for racism. But of course they're wrong about that. Just like they're wrong about everything involving a minimum amount of education and common sense. I strongly suggest you stop following low IQ hate-speech idiots like the alt-right.
- SamReidHughes 9y ago
  That's a nice story, but no numbers. Why would the environment be "most", i.e. 50-100% of the gap? How do you know it's not 30% or 130%?
  - partycoder 9y ago
    I will not start a discussion around the validity of research because that conversation belongs in academic peer review and at this level it is pointless and it will end nowhere. But feel free to look for studies on these topics and form your own opinion: - Proper nutrition helps IQ. Iodine consumption helps IQ. - Poor health conditions, including presence of sub-saharan parasites, lowers IQ. - Lead poisoning (e.g: lead-based paint and mining activities) lowers IQ.

MarkMc 9y ago

Keep in mind that this young man will most likely support his family in Ghana by giving money to his brothers and sisters and acting as mentor to his nieces and nephews. Here's a hypothetical question: Suppose there is a charitable foundation that identifies 100 poor, smart, hard-working young people in Ghana. Of these 100, the foundation randomly chooses 50 to receive a scholarship to immigrate to a rich country like the US or Germany and receive a university education. Ten years after they graduate, the foundation asks an independent person to make an assessment of 'contribution to Ghanaian society' for (a) each family member of each graduate; (b) each individual who did not receive the scholarship and each of his/her family members. If the result is that the estimated total contribution by group (a) is bigger than group (b), would that change your mind about emigration being a loss to the community?

twblalock 9y ago

> Migration since the 60's has become a giant IQ-sorting system and that's having huge consequences on all sides. And this never seems to get discussed, oddly. It's discussed a lot. It's where the term "brain drain" comes from. Hundreds of studies have been done on the subject, many of which are linked on the wikipedia page for "human capital flight," which is the academic term for what you're talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_capital_flight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_capital_flight

Jare 9y ago

> It's difficult, morally, to balance the benefit gained by the guy who took the action, compared to the loss his community suffered by his departure I can't make a moral argument why he is more obligated to sacrifice himself for that country, than anyone else in the world. Being born there is a pure lottery and has very little to do with morals. If anything, the moral expectation would be on the people in many other parts of the world, who spend most of their (our) lives in relative comfort, to devote some real time and effort helping there.