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No non-lawyer is competent to understand all real estate transaction documents. But they might be competent enough to acquiesce to the grand stupidity of our cu

by cmurf 9y ago

No non-lawyer is competent to understand all real estate transaction documents. But they might be competent enough to acquiesce to the grand stupidity of our culture [1] and hire a real estate attorney. Mine reviewed all the relevant documents and come to the closing, for a flat fee that I thought was rather reasonable, in particular compared to the hand cramp I got from all the ridiculous paper work I had to hand sign. [1] Consider: the banks, the title company, the county, all want hand signed documents. But we accept computerized voting machines to manage elections.

skookumchuck 9y ago
> No non-lawyer is competent to understand all real estate transaction documents. I understood them well enough. It isn't that hard. The misunderstandings people would complain about were not about subtleties or legal hare-splitting. It's also established legal doctrine that a contract written in ambiguous, confusing, or tricky language isn't going to hold up in court. Judges take a dim view of that. I also actually read them. Amazing. Although this would visibly annoy the escrow officer. You did the right thing by having a lawyer review it if you didn't feel confident about it. There's no excuse not to if it is a large transaction.
- cmurf 9y ago
  A house is, for most people, a very large transaction. Saying "it isn't that hard" considering attorney's specialize in real estate is like saying "reading x-rays isn't that hard". Had I not had an attorney present, it would have taken me all day, instead of 4 hours of reading stuff. It wasn't a matter of confidence in myself, it was a matter of having less than 100% trust in everyone else present.
  - DannyBee 9y ago
    " Saying "it isn't that hard" considering attorney's specialize in real estate" Attorneys specialize in everything, the fact that attorneys specialize in real estate does not make every real estate transaction difficult, or require an attorney. There are attorneys who specialize in speeding tickets. That does not make understanding the laws around speed limits difficult. If just means it's an area where attorneys believe they can make money by building a niche. That is not a measure of the complexity of that area, but of a large number of factors. (same with DUI) In fact, attorneys specialize in real estate to handle the complicated things, which are not closings. So your point kind of goes against this argument you keep trying to make. I'm also not at all sure what your analogy to x-rays is supposed to be proving. It seems very strange x-rays have no context and to people not familiar with at least anatomy and a number of other things, and are subject to different opinions. On the contrary, real estate contracts, which are usually boilerplate plain english, only require understanding english. They may take a while to read, but they don't require specialized training. They are generally not subject to different interpretations, that's precisely why they are written the way they are! There is no equivalent for x-rays that could make laypeople competent.
  - skookumchuck 9y ago
    I should add that it isn't hard for ordinary real estate transactions, as the contracts are pretty standard boilerplate. If there's anything unusual about it, such as easements, water rights, unclear borders, weird covenants, by all means get a lawyer involves. If you're at all uncomfortable or confused by the deal, get a lawyer. Don't wing it and then blame the other party. If you're buying an $800,000 house, often the most important investment in a person's life, spending a day reviewing the deal is a trivial incremental investment.
DannyBee 9y ago
"No non-lawyer is competent to understand all real estate transaction documents." This is bullshit, they are not complicated legalese. Additionally, the vast majority of states require someone who can explain the documents to you be there at the closing. Some require they even be lawyers. Even those that don't, have provision on what must happen. For example, in California, whoever is doing the closing will stop on each document, explain what the document is and what it says, and ask you if you have any questions, before proceeding to the next one. I don't believe, when that happens, one can reasonably complain they didn't have a chance to understand the documents.

by cmurf 9y ago

skookumchuck 9y ago

> No non-lawyer is competent to understand all real estate transaction documents. I understood them well enough. It isn't that hard. The misunderstandings people would complain about were not about subtleties or legal hare-splitting. It's also established legal doctrine that a contract written in ambiguous, confusing, or tricky language isn't going to hold up in court. Judges take a dim view of that. I also actually read them. Amazing. Although this would visibly annoy the escrow officer. You did the right thing by having a lawyer review it if you didn't feel confident about it. There's no excuse not to if it is a large transaction.

cmurf 9y ago
A house is, for most people, a very large transaction. Saying "it isn't that hard" considering attorney's specialize in real estate is like saying "reading x-rays isn't that hard". Had I not had an attorney present, it would have taken me all day, instead of 4 hours of reading stuff. It wasn't a matter of confidence in myself, it was a matter of having less than 100% trust in everyone else present.
- DannyBee 9y ago
  " Saying "it isn't that hard" considering attorney's specialize in real estate" Attorneys specialize in everything, the fact that attorneys specialize in real estate does not make every real estate transaction difficult, or require an attorney. There are attorneys who specialize in speeding tickets. That does not make understanding the laws around speed limits difficult. If just means it's an area where attorneys believe they can make money by building a niche. That is not a measure of the complexity of that area, but of a large number of factors. (same with DUI) In fact, attorneys specialize in real estate to handle the complicated things, which are not closings. So your point kind of goes against this argument you keep trying to make. I'm also not at all sure what your analogy to x-rays is supposed to be proving. It seems very strange x-rays have no context and to people not familiar with at least anatomy and a number of other things, and are subject to different opinions. On the contrary, real estate contracts, which are usually boilerplate plain english, only require understanding english. They may take a while to read, but they don't require specialized training. They are generally not subject to different interpretations, that's precisely why they are written the way they are! There is no equivalent for x-rays that could make laypeople competent.
- skookumchuck 9y ago
  I should add that it isn't hard for ordinary real estate transactions, as the contracts are pretty standard boilerplate. If there's anything unusual about it, such as easements, water rights, unclear borders, weird covenants, by all means get a lawyer involves. If you're at all uncomfortable or confused by the deal, get a lawyer. Don't wing it and then blame the other party. If you're buying an $800,000 house, often the most important investment in a person's life, spending a day reviewing the deal is a trivial incremental investment.

DannyBee 9y ago

"No non-lawyer is competent to understand all real estate transaction documents." This is bullshit, they are not complicated legalese. Additionally, the vast majority of states require someone who can explain the documents to you be there at the closing. Some require they even be lawyers. Even those that don't, have provision on what must happen. For example, in California, whoever is doing the closing will stop on each document, explain what the document is and what it says, and ask you if you have any questions, before proceeding to the next one. I don't believe, when that happens, one can reasonably complain they didn't have a chance to understand the documents.