6 ms·

Thank you for clarifying. As a Barcelona citizen, I was with the impression that Spain's central government furious attack against Catalonia people's right to

by bcncit 9y ago

Thank you for clarifying. As a Barcelona citizen, I was with the impression that Spain's central government furious attack against Catalonia people's right to self-determination was to simply to distract the fact that the central government party (Partido Popular) has over 900 politicians currently on trial with charges of corruption (more than any other party in the whole Europe). In fact, I thought central government's current situation was great material for a potential sequel of a great movie. The sequel could be called "Wag the Dog 2" with Robert de Niro as adviser of central goverment's president Mariano Rajoy, who as you know will be forced to declare in one these trials for corruption. So, in your opinion the best solution for Barcelona is that Spain's central government should take over and fix our housing issues in Barcelona? Thanks in advance for elaborating on the reasons why you think it is a good idea after the chaos they created in Barcelona's airport with something much simpler as passport control.

faragon 9y ago
You're a Spanish citizen, as there is no such thing as per-city citizenship in Spain. BTW, you can twist the words at your convenience, if that makes you happy.
- bcncit 9y ago
  Currently, I am technically a Spanish citizen. I like people from Spain, their food and their culture, and I even find it kind of cool that they have a king, although I do not feel he is my king in any way. When I watch a soccer game with the Spain's national team I can equally celebrate a goal scored by them or against them if I like the goal. With Catalonia's national team (who only are allowed to play once a year) or my local team FC Barcelona (I even have a season ticket) the feelings are totally different. Also I do not feel at all the Spanish flag is my flag. To be frank, I even have a sense of foreigness when I look at the Spanish flag, possibly because it still somehow suggests repression to me. I strongly believe that people in Catalonia should have the right of self-determination. The culture, the language, even the traits are distinct enough to deserve it, and not be bullied because of it. That Catalan people have the right of self-determination does not mean that all Catalan people who think they should have that right would vote to leave Spain. I am totally neutral about if the outcome of a referendum is to leave Spain or to stay in Spain (both things have upsides and downsides at short and long term), but I'm not neutral about Catalonia's people having the right of self-determination, we should have it.
  - faragon 9y ago
    You can believe in whatever you want, have aversion to symbols, think how special you are vs other co-citizens, etc.: your free-speech is protected by the Spanish Constitution, the UE, and the UN. Mine is protected, too, and in my opinion the Catalan region culture is pretty similar to the culture of the rest of Spain, and the ones painting the Catalan region as "different", in the ethic sense, lie, or simply don't consider the majority of the Catalan population as human beings having the same rights (check Catalan people family-names: are in the same proportion as the rest of Spain; you can check also religion, gastronomy, even trash-TV show taste is similar to the Spanish average, etc.). Regarding the "Catalan people", I am "Catalan people", too, and the only oppression I see in the Catalan region is the one pushed by the Catalan regional government towards forcing uniform ethnic brainwash from public administration and schools, in Catalan-only, instead of bilingual Spanish-Catalan. A reminder: not only Catalan-speakers -mother tongue- (35% of inhabitants of the Catalan region) have rights, Spanish-speakers (55% of inhabitants of the Catalan region) have rights, too. So next time you fight for your rights, be sure you're really fighting for your rights (I would endorse you), and not for quitting/removing/stealing other people's rights (I would not endorse you). Respect works both ways. Kind regards.
    - bcncit 9y ago
      Sorry, I believe I misunderstood you. I thought you were _against_ granting the right of self-determination to Catalan people, that is, the people who lives in Catalonia whatever language they speak. I did not catch that you endorsed fighting for rights. Just wanted to clarify that I do not particularly support all Catalan Government policies, in fact, just a few of them. There are many important other rights that need to be addressed such as the right to die with dignity (this is long overdue) or the right receiving education in your language, at least for major languages such as Catalan, Spanish, Arabic or English. Please note that this is not an issue only local to Barcelona, this is an issue that also face people who speak Catalan, English or Arabic at home and live, for example, in Madrid and only receive education in Spanish (is that also "uniform ethnic brainwash"!?). My guess is that authorizities in Barcelona or Madrid do not grant this right as to avoid segregation, but we will not know unless they try it and see actual segregation. The other alternative of teaching everybody evenly in all significant languages in our society (Catalan, Spanish, Arabic and English) might overwhelm kids. I'm not sure if you have any actual experience with the Catalan education system or just read about it on the yellow press and that build your opinion to define it "uniform etnic brainwash". Would you share if you have any actual experience with it and what impact it had on you or your children? In my actual experience, my three children have been fully exposed to the "uniform ethnic brainwash" Catalan education and IMHO, their Spanish is better than their Catalan is, even when we speak Catalan at home. They have some knowledge of English, but they have no knowledge of Arabic.
dang 9y ago
The sort of internecine political battle that you and faragon took this thread into definitely does not belong on HN. Please don't do this again. The last thing we need here is flaming nationalist passions.

by bcncit 9y ago

faragon 9y ago

You're a Spanish citizen, as there is no such thing as per-city citizenship in Spain. BTW, you can twist the words at your convenience, if that makes you happy.

bcncit 9y ago
Currently, I am technically a Spanish citizen. I like people from Spain, their food and their culture, and I even find it kind of cool that they have a king, although I do not feel he is my king in any way. When I watch a soccer game with the Spain's national team I can equally celebrate a goal scored by them or against them if I like the goal. With Catalonia's national team (who only are allowed to play once a year) or my local team FC Barcelona (I even have a season ticket) the feelings are totally different. Also I do not feel at all the Spanish flag is my flag. To be frank, I even have a sense of foreigness when I look at the Spanish flag, possibly because it still somehow suggests repression to me. I strongly believe that people in Catalonia should have the right of self-determination. The culture, the language, even the traits are distinct enough to deserve it, and not be bullied because of it. That Catalan people have the right of self-determination does not mean that all Catalan people who think they should have that right would vote to leave Spain. I am totally neutral about if the outcome of a referendum is to leave Spain or to stay in Spain (both things have upsides and downsides at short and long term), but I'm not neutral about Catalonia's people having the right of self-determination, we should have it.
- faragon 9y ago
  You can believe in whatever you want, have aversion to symbols, think how special you are vs other co-citizens, etc.: your free-speech is protected by the Spanish Constitution, the UE, and the UN. Mine is protected, too, and in my opinion the Catalan region culture is pretty similar to the culture of the rest of Spain, and the ones painting the Catalan region as "different", in the ethic sense, lie, or simply don't consider the majority of the Catalan population as human beings having the same rights (check Catalan people family-names: are in the same proportion as the rest of Spain; you can check also religion, gastronomy, even trash-TV show taste is similar to the Spanish average, etc.). Regarding the "Catalan people", I am "Catalan people", too, and the only oppression I see in the Catalan region is the one pushed by the Catalan regional government towards forcing uniform ethnic brainwash from public administration and schools, in Catalan-only, instead of bilingual Spanish-Catalan. A reminder: not only Catalan-speakers -mother tongue- (35% of inhabitants of the Catalan region) have rights, Spanish-speakers (55% of inhabitants of the Catalan region) have rights, too. So next time you fight for your rights, be sure you're really fighting for your rights (I would endorse you), and not for quitting/removing/stealing other people's rights (I would not endorse you). Respect works both ways. Kind regards.
  - bcncit 9y ago
    Sorry, I believe I misunderstood you. I thought you were _against_ granting the right of self-determination to Catalan people, that is, the people who lives in Catalonia whatever language they speak. I did not catch that you endorsed fighting for rights. Just wanted to clarify that I do not particularly support all Catalan Government policies, in fact, just a few of them. There are many important other rights that need to be addressed such as the right to die with dignity (this is long overdue) or the right receiving education in your language, at least for major languages such as Catalan, Spanish, Arabic or English. Please note that this is not an issue only local to Barcelona, this is an issue that also face people who speak Catalan, English or Arabic at home and live, for example, in Madrid and only receive education in Spanish (is that also "uniform ethnic brainwash"!?). My guess is that authorizities in Barcelona or Madrid do not grant this right as to avoid segregation, but we will not know unless they try it and see actual segregation. The other alternative of teaching everybody evenly in all significant languages in our society (Catalan, Spanish, Arabic and English) might overwhelm kids. I'm not sure if you have any actual experience with the Catalan education system or just read about it on the yellow press and that build your opinion to define it "uniform etnic brainwash". Would you share if you have any actual experience with it and what impact it had on you or your children? In my actual experience, my three children have been fully exposed to the "uniform ethnic brainwash" Catalan education and IMHO, their Spanish is better than their Catalan is, even when we speak Catalan at home. They have some knowledge of English, but they have no knowledge of Arabic.

dang 9y ago

The sort of internecine political battle that you and faragon took this thread into definitely does not belong on HN. Please don't do this again. The last thing we need here is flaming nationalist passions.