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The teachers unions keeps terrible teachers employed. In California some school districts have pulled teachers from classrooms because they are unfit to teach,

The teachers unions keeps terrible teachers employed. In California some school districts have pulled teachers from classrooms because they are unfit to teach, but they can't fire them because of union rules. They are literally paid to do nothing [1]. Many of the teachers I've talked to hate the union, but it's a very strong union and not much can be done about it. [1] http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/06/local/me-teachers6 http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/06/local/me-teachers6

emodendroket 9y ago
Uh-huh. All the people who tell me about this think the solution is kids straight out of school teach in charter schools for a couple years and then leave, which it seems to me would not really result in better education.
thatswrong0 9y ago
Public unions and private unions are entirely different beasts IMO. I don't like the idea of public unions because they can essentially bleed taxpayers dry. See California or Illinois unfounded liabilities for the result of that. Not to mention the atrocity that is police unions.
- thephyber 9y ago
  unfunded (sp) liabilities. And be careful where you wave your wand. Illinois pensions are very underfunded while California pensions are not even close to as bad, we just have a much larger denominator. Also, the rate of funding in California is set by the employer (the city / county, etc) and not the state, the union, or the unionized employee. The pension organizations (CalPERS and CalSTERS) have unreasonable rates of return projected in the system (7.5% annual last I heard) and the employers, not the state, are on the hook if those pensions are underfunded due to that high rate of anticipated compounded interest. Stockton went bankrupt soon after the 1999 bubble burst because there was no possible way they could make that level of anticipated returns in 2000-2001 (in addition to other bad investments the city made). > I don't like the idea of public unions because they can essentially bleed taxpayers dry. Private sector unions can bleed companies dry just the same. GM had negotiated itself into a corner pre-2008 and was less than 60 days from bankruptcy if not for US Government intervention (which helped them renegotiate their labor contracts). You can argue that a city in bankruptcy can't shed its pension liabilities the same way a company in bankruptcy can, but it's heavily dependent on the state law and the contracts. The problem isn't that "they can essentially bleed taxpayers dry". They problems are that government jobs are largely undesirable for high-performing employees (with a few notable exceptions) and that government union jobs in the states you named mandate union dues by law. The latter was challenged at the SCOTUS during the Scalia absence[1]. [1] http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/friedrichs-v-california-teachers-association/ http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/friedrichs-v-cali...
  - thatswrong0 9y ago
    Of course private sector unions can bleed companies dry. The difference is that I am not involuntarily invested in said companies that are being bled dry. That is, I suppose, unless the government jumps in to bail them out.
mcguire 9y ago
"About 160 teachers and other staff sit idly in buildings scattered around the sprawling district, waiting for allegations of misconduct to be resolved." So, an "allegation of misconduct" is "unfit to teach"?
- DiabloD3 9y ago
  In some cases, these teachers have openly abused students, but it is very hard to prove such cases even though there is proof (some level of irony applies here). Here in Maine, we either don't have a teachers union, or it is not a problematic cancer like it is in California and New York, and we still have problems firing toxic teachers that have actively harmed students.
  - mcguire 9y ago
    That whole 'due process' thing sucks.
    - DiabloD3 9y ago
      In a way it does. Due process should be carried out in a way independent of involved parties; ie, it doesn't matter if the union strikes, cases involving abuse of students or other similar misconduct should be heard by a court or other legal body independent of the school system. As in, the school should not have the authority to fire or punish teachers inside of its structure, and needs to be outside of the influence of both the schools and the unions to maintain fairness and safety. If you did the crime, you do the time, no matter if it even results in the union striking for the entirety of your prison sentence.

emodendroket 9y ago

Uh-huh. All the people who tell me about this think the solution is kids straight out of school teach in charter schools for a couple years and then leave, which it seems to me would not really result in better education.

thatswrong0 9y ago

Public unions and private unions are entirely different beasts IMO. I don't like the idea of public unions because they can essentially bleed taxpayers dry. See California or Illinois unfounded liabilities for the result of that. Not to mention the atrocity that is police unions.

thephyber 9y ago
unfunded (sp) liabilities. And be careful where you wave your wand. Illinois pensions are very underfunded while California pensions are not even close to as bad, we just have a much larger denominator. Also, the rate of funding in California is set by the employer (the city / county, etc) and not the state, the union, or the unionized employee. The pension organizations (CalPERS and CalSTERS) have unreasonable rates of return projected in the system (7.5% annual last I heard) and the employers, not the state, are on the hook if those pensions are underfunded due to that high rate of anticipated compounded interest. Stockton went bankrupt soon after the 1999 bubble burst because there was no possible way they could make that level of anticipated returns in 2000-2001 (in addition to other bad investments the city made). > I don't like the idea of public unions because they can essentially bleed taxpayers dry. Private sector unions can bleed companies dry just the same. GM had negotiated itself into a corner pre-2008 and was less than 60 days from bankruptcy if not for US Government intervention (which helped them renegotiate their labor contracts). You can argue that a city in bankruptcy can't shed its pension liabilities the same way a company in bankruptcy can, but it's heavily dependent on the state law and the contracts. The problem isn't that "they can essentially bleed taxpayers dry". They problems are that government jobs are largely undesirable for high-performing employees (with a few notable exceptions) and that government union jobs in the states you named mandate union dues by law. The latter was challenged at the SCOTUS during the Scalia absence[1]. [1] http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/friedrichs-v-california-teachers-association/ http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/friedrichs-v-cali...
- thatswrong0 9y ago
  Of course private sector unions can bleed companies dry. The difference is that I am not involuntarily invested in said companies that are being bled dry. That is, I suppose, unless the government jumps in to bail them out.

mcguire 9y ago

"About 160 teachers and other staff sit idly in buildings scattered around the sprawling district, waiting for allegations of misconduct to be resolved." So, an "allegation of misconduct" is "unfit to teach"?

DiabloD3 9y ago
In some cases, these teachers have openly abused students, but it is very hard to prove such cases even though there is proof (some level of irony applies here). Here in Maine, we either don't have a teachers union, or it is not a problematic cancer like it is in California and New York, and we still have problems firing toxic teachers that have actively harmed students.
- mcguire 9y ago
  That whole 'due process' thing sucks.
  - DiabloD3 9y ago
    In a way it does. Due process should be carried out in a way independent of involved parties; ie, it doesn't matter if the union strikes, cases involving abuse of students or other similar misconduct should be heard by a court or other legal body independent of the school system. As in, the school should not have the authority to fire or punish teachers inside of its structure, and needs to be outside of the influence of both the schools and the unions to maintain fairness and safety. If you did the crime, you do the time, no matter if it even results in the union striking for the entirety of your prison sentence.