3 ms·

Curious what your thoughts are on this: https://reverseengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/5878/reverse-engineering-modern-intel-cpus https://reverseengine

Curious what your thoughts are on this: https://reverseengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/5878/reverse-engineering-modern-intel-cpus https://reverseengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/5878/...

Cyph0n 9y ago
A modern Intel CPU is a different beast entirely. Even relatively simple ICs become exceedingly difficult to reverse at lower process nodes, so I agree with the answer. My comment was more geared towards simpler ICs at a fairly accessible process node (65 nm and older). Also, my use of the word "reverse" in no way includes the process of figuring out what each part of the circuit does in detail. Nonetheless, at least in my field of research, the assumption is that there exist nation states with "unlimited" resources that can in fact reverse complex ICs. In reality, I doubt even the US DoD has that level of resources available, so I like to think of the assumption as an analogue to the oracle model in cryptography.
- userbinator 9y ago
  In reality, I doubt even the US DoD has that level of resources available, so I like to think of the assumption as an analogue to the oracle model in cryptography. Actually I would look East, to China and Russia, for the latest technologies in IC reverse-engineering. I don't think nation-state levels of resources are necessary even to RE something like an Intel CPU. To actually understand how it all works is a different matter, but if you're talking about just deriving a transistor-level or gate-level schematic, or turning that into HDL, from my understanding it's actually quite affordable now. You can already recover code from most microcontrollers with <$10K USD (and I personally know others who have used those services before); I'd estimate getting a schematic to cost maybe 10x that.
  - richardwhiuk 9y ago
    Modern intel CPUs are very different beasts from your average microcontroller.
- angry_octet 9y ago
  I think we can assume that if the potential gain is large enough, the US or other high tech economies (China/Japan/Korea/Russia/Singapore/France/Italy/etc) are definitely capable and willing to expend significant sums. For example, the fragments of recent NorK missiles. If they had any computer or radar fragments left, they would be analysed, even if it cost $100M. Also, military cryptographic processors, especially for strategic or space comms.
subroutine 9y ago
You might find this interesting: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/what-donkey-kong-can-tell-us-about-how-study-brain https://www.sciencenews.org/article/what-donkey-kong-can-tel... It was a post on HN a few months back

Cyph0n 9y ago

A modern Intel CPU is a different beast entirely. Even relatively simple ICs become exceedingly difficult to reverse at lower process nodes, so I agree with the answer. My comment was more geared towards simpler ICs at a fairly accessible process node (65 nm and older). Also, my use of the word "reverse" in no way includes the process of figuring out what each part of the circuit does in detail. Nonetheless, at least in my field of research, the assumption is that there exist nation states with "unlimited" resources that can in fact reverse complex ICs. In reality, I doubt even the US DoD has that level of resources available, so I like to think of the assumption as an analogue to the oracle model in cryptography.

userbinator 9y ago
In reality, I doubt even the US DoD has that level of resources available, so I like to think of the assumption as an analogue to the oracle model in cryptography. Actually I would look East, to China and Russia, for the latest technologies in IC reverse-engineering. I don't think nation-state levels of resources are necessary even to RE something like an Intel CPU. To actually understand how it all works is a different matter, but if you're talking about just deriving a transistor-level or gate-level schematic, or turning that into HDL, from my understanding it's actually quite affordable now. You can already recover code from most microcontrollers with <$10K USD (and I personally know others who have used those services before); I'd estimate getting a schematic to cost maybe 10x that.
- richardwhiuk 9y ago
  Modern intel CPUs are very different beasts from your average microcontroller.
angry_octet 9y ago
I think we can assume that if the potential gain is large enough, the US or other high tech economies (China/Japan/Korea/Russia/Singapore/France/Italy/etc) are definitely capable and willing to expend significant sums. For example, the fragments of recent NorK missiles. If they had any computer or radar fragments left, they would be analysed, even if it cost $100M. Also, military cryptographic processors, especially for strategic or space comms.

subroutine 9y ago

You might find this interesting: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/what-donkey-kong-can-tell-us-about-how-study-brain https://www.sciencenews.org/article/what-donkey-kong-can-tel... It was a post on HN a few months back