4 ms·

>if she is not happy with the house, it is not a good idea to be all "meh -- not like she will divorce me over this." Implying that you think living in a too-s

by J-dawg 9y ago

>if she is not happy with the house, it is not a good idea to be all "meh -- not like she will divorce me over this." Implying that you think living in a too-small house actually is grounds for divorce?

Mz 9y ago
Implying that fundamental lack of respect for her as a human being whose opinions are equally important as her husband's in determining their lifestyle is grounds for divorce as it tends to cause all kinds of very serious problems.
- soineuh 9y ago
  Is not gratifying your wife's complaints about the size of her house a fundamental affront to her dignity, or is it merely settling one of the many compromises that individuals make when they choose to pool their responsibilities, energy, spirit, attention, and resources? Presumably someone winds up with a too-small house because they can't afford a bigger one. Coming to afford things in the first place usually involves purposely enduring a significant amount of discomfort. Very often two people in the same place find themselves both unhappy with circumstance, and there's no way to bring them both to paradise. That's why it pays to have someone by your side who isn't a complainer. You relieve burdens from each other not because on the whole it makes your lives objectively better in sum, but because it's easier to endure the unavoidable pains of life when you have a good human reason: Family.
- J-dawg 9y ago
  But what if there just isn't enough money for the bigger place? What if he doesn't enjoy being the breadwinner, and would rather live modestly and save like crazy so that he has a chance of early retirement one day? The rare occasions where women drop the facade and talk honestly about this stuff are always interesting. In spite of all the feminist rhetoric that we're exposed to these days, the truth is that women want (and often expect) a provider. >a human being whose opinions are equally important For day-to-day stuff, of course this is true. But in decisions that are largely financial (such as home ownership), the opinion of the person earning the money should probably carry more weight. Perhaps that's a controversial opinion. (And before you accuse me of sexism, I'd have the same opinion when the main breadwinner is a woman.)
  - Mz 9y ago
    You are putting all kinds of words in my mouth and completely overlooking things I actually said. I see no means to engage you in good faith because this so strongly comes across as you hanging your crap on me and making no good faith effort to actually understand anything I actually said.
    - J-dawg 9y ago
      You made an interesting point about how a stay-at-home partner might have different needs and different experiences of the same living area. I can see how that would be the case. What I disagree with is the (incredibly old-fashioned) implication that a man is somehow duty-bound to provide the material things that his wife requires. I am not "hanging my crap" on anyone.
      - Mz 9y ago
        There is no point whatsoever at which I said or implied that. I did not say he must get her a bigger house. I did say that the house they currently have might be able to work for all parties, but maybe the improvements he is making are about what he likes and her needs aren't really being addressed. I did suggest he seek mediation. So, yeah, you have baggage and you are projecting all kinds of stuff onto me that I never said. If you check my blog, I encouraged my adult sons to take over the women's work in order to let them avoid getting a job and let me put more of my energy into my corporate job. I have a proven track record of being willing to be the provider for an adult man. I think it unlikely I will ever be the provider for a lover though because all evidence suggests that men almost never take over the housework proficiently when they have a woman paying their bills. Everything I have ever heard indicates they typically sit on their ass, play video games and can't be bothered to cook. She works all day and then goes home and also cooks dinner. I supported my sons because I came home and got served dinner. Most men seem incapable of really grasping that being a housewife is damn hard work and genuinely supports his career effort. An awful lot of them seem to think it is some pampered, privileged position where she sits around watching soap operas all day and eating bon bons while he busts his hump to support her in style. If you want to reread my previous remarks and engage my actual points, I am happy to talk to you. But everything you have said so far is total and complete projection of things you imagine me to believe, not anything I actually fucking said.
Klockan 9y ago
Stop shaming people over stuff like that, living space is important! It is kinda like when companies are shaming employees for wanting to leave if they don't get a decent salary.
- soineuh 9y ago
  Discouraging poor values is precisely the purpose of shaming. Do you think that a large home is more valuable than marital fidelity? This is a cartoonish question to any sane person.
- J-dawg 9y ago
  So a marriage should be like a contract where each party is expected to fulfil certain obligations? You might want to rethink that analogy.
Broken_Hippo 9y ago
I'm not the poster, but I'll take a stab at the answer - mostly drawing from my experience being a housewife and in a relationship where things weren't split very evenly. Small places are usually good for one person. The more folks you add to a small space, the more work there is for a single person. This is especially if folks happen to have a lot of things they aren't using, have hobbies that require a fair amount of physical space, or have differing hobbies/interests that take a smaller amount of space. Additionally, some things make for daily frustrations, depending on the housing situation. Fighting with your own storage space to put the dishes away, for example. These sorts of frustrations add up and affect the quality of life. One person winds up having to deal with it most of the time, and there aren't coworkers there to vent to. There is no one. One solution is to gain more space and more efficient "work" or "duty" areas (laundry, restrooms, and kitchens). Another solution is to do things that make the other's daily life easier, hence the picking up after oneself. Making sure to split the chores up fairly evenly so that both parties get days off or simply doing it more often so a homewife/husband gets some time away from the monotonous daily grind. The answer is both yes and no. Edited for clarity.
- J-dawg 9y ago
  Ok, I agree that all things being equal, a lovely big house is a lot nicer to live in than a cramped apartment, and that this has a greater effect on the person who stays at home more or does more chores. I just find it depressing that women in 2017 will quite casually talk about divorcing someone for not being a sufficiently good provider of material things. I cannot imagine men talking like this. I grew up believing the feminist rhetoric and hoping that my eventual spouse would be an equal partner, but the truth is that (most) women want somebody to provide for them, and a man's value in the relationship marketplace is still largely determined by his ability to provide.
  - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
    You've missed the point. This isn't about providing for someone, but more about understanding the point of view of the other one. This doesn't diminish the equality. I've personally been in most roles - housewife, the only breadwinner, and both parties working. My own house runs more on fairness. It is harder to understand these roles when you haven't done them yourself. It is easy to highlight only the positives and things like that. Most housewives/husbands have the option of going to work to improve the standard of living if they would like, and I view that as their responsibility instead of relying on their spouse to earn more. This isn't their situation, though - affordability didn't seem to be an issue. Look, if I'm working and the job gives me monotony and frustration daily - where folks aren't doing their basic things and I'm having to make up for their shortcomings - I'm likely to quit after a while. This is more similar to staying at home, except there aren't really days off and you can't escape. One of the possible solutions to improve it is to move. Just one, and this isn't available to all. Others are her working, him making sure to pitch in more, remodeling, and so on.

by J-dawg 9y ago

Mz 9y ago

Implying that fundamental lack of respect for her as a human being whose opinions are equally important as her husband's in determining their lifestyle is grounds for divorce as it tends to cause all kinds of very serious problems.

soineuh 9y ago
Is not gratifying your wife's complaints about the size of her house a fundamental affront to her dignity, or is it merely settling one of the many compromises that individuals make when they choose to pool their responsibilities, energy, spirit, attention, and resources? Presumably someone winds up with a too-small house because they can't afford a bigger one. Coming to afford things in the first place usually involves purposely enduring a significant amount of discomfort. Very often two people in the same place find themselves both unhappy with circumstance, and there's no way to bring them both to paradise. That's why it pays to have someone by your side who isn't a complainer. You relieve burdens from each other not because on the whole it makes your lives objectively better in sum, but because it's easier to endure the unavoidable pains of life when you have a good human reason: Family.
J-dawg 9y ago
But what if there just isn't enough money for the bigger place? What if he doesn't enjoy being the breadwinner, and would rather live modestly and save like crazy so that he has a chance of early retirement one day? The rare occasions where women drop the facade and talk honestly about this stuff are always interesting. In spite of all the feminist rhetoric that we're exposed to these days, the truth is that women want (and often expect) a provider. >a human being whose opinions are equally important For day-to-day stuff, of course this is true. But in decisions that are largely financial (such as home ownership), the opinion of the person earning the money should probably carry more weight. Perhaps that's a controversial opinion. (And before you accuse me of sexism, I'd have the same opinion when the main breadwinner is a woman.)
- Mz 9y ago
  You are putting all kinds of words in my mouth and completely overlooking things I actually said. I see no means to engage you in good faith because this so strongly comes across as you hanging your crap on me and making no good faith effort to actually understand anything I actually said.
  - J-dawg 9y ago
    You made an interesting point about how a stay-at-home partner might have different needs and different experiences of the same living area. I can see how that would be the case. What I disagree with is the (incredibly old-fashioned) implication that a man is somehow duty-bound to provide the material things that his wife requires. I am not "hanging my crap" on anyone.
    - Mz 9y ago
      There is no point whatsoever at which I said or implied that. I did not say he must get her a bigger house. I did say that the house they currently have might be able to work for all parties, but maybe the improvements he is making are about what he likes and her needs aren't really being addressed. I did suggest he seek mediation. So, yeah, you have baggage and you are projecting all kinds of stuff onto me that I never said. If you check my blog, I encouraged my adult sons to take over the women's work in order to let them avoid getting a job and let me put more of my energy into my corporate job. I have a proven track record of being willing to be the provider for an adult man. I think it unlikely I will ever be the provider for a lover though because all evidence suggests that men almost never take over the housework proficiently when they have a woman paying their bills. Everything I have ever heard indicates they typically sit on their ass, play video games and can't be bothered to cook. She works all day and then goes home and also cooks dinner. I supported my sons because I came home and got served dinner. Most men seem incapable of really grasping that being a housewife is damn hard work and genuinely supports his career effort. An awful lot of them seem to think it is some pampered, privileged position where she sits around watching soap operas all day and eating bon bons while he busts his hump to support her in style. If you want to reread my previous remarks and engage my actual points, I am happy to talk to you. But everything you have said so far is total and complete projection of things you imagine me to believe, not anything I actually fucking said.

Klockan 9y ago

Stop shaming people over stuff like that, living space is important! It is kinda like when companies are shaming employees for wanting to leave if they don't get a decent salary.

soineuh 9y ago
Discouraging poor values is precisely the purpose of shaming. Do you think that a large home is more valuable than marital fidelity? This is a cartoonish question to any sane person.
J-dawg 9y ago
So a marriage should be like a contract where each party is expected to fulfil certain obligations? You might want to rethink that analogy.

Broken_Hippo 9y ago

I'm not the poster, but I'll take a stab at the answer - mostly drawing from my experience being a housewife and in a relationship where things weren't split very evenly. Small places are usually good for one person. The more folks you add to a small space, the more work there is for a single person. This is especially if folks happen to have a lot of things they aren't using, have hobbies that require a fair amount of physical space, or have differing hobbies/interests that take a smaller amount of space. Additionally, some things make for daily frustrations, depending on the housing situation. Fighting with your own storage space to put the dishes away, for example. These sorts of frustrations add up and affect the quality of life. One person winds up having to deal with it most of the time, and there aren't coworkers there to vent to. There is no one. One solution is to gain more space and more efficient "work" or "duty" areas (laundry, restrooms, and kitchens). Another solution is to do things that make the other's daily life easier, hence the picking up after oneself. Making sure to split the chores up fairly evenly so that both parties get days off or simply doing it more often so a homewife/husband gets some time away from the monotonous daily grind. The answer is both yes and no. Edited for clarity.

J-dawg 9y ago
Ok, I agree that all things being equal, a lovely big house is a lot nicer to live in than a cramped apartment, and that this has a greater effect on the person who stays at home more or does more chores. I just find it depressing that women in 2017 will quite casually talk about divorcing someone for not being a sufficiently good provider of material things. I cannot imagine men talking like this. I grew up believing the feminist rhetoric and hoping that my eventual spouse would be an equal partner, but the truth is that (most) women want somebody to provide for them, and a man's value in the relationship marketplace is still largely determined by his ability to provide.
- Broken_Hippo 9y ago
  You've missed the point. This isn't about providing for someone, but more about understanding the point of view of the other one. This doesn't diminish the equality. I've personally been in most roles - housewife, the only breadwinner, and both parties working. My own house runs more on fairness. It is harder to understand these roles when you haven't done them yourself. It is easy to highlight only the positives and things like that. Most housewives/husbands have the option of going to work to improve the standard of living if they would like, and I view that as their responsibility instead of relying on their spouse to earn more. This isn't their situation, though - affordability didn't seem to be an issue. Look, if I'm working and the job gives me monotony and frustration daily - where folks aren't doing their basic things and I'm having to make up for their shortcomings - I'm likely to quit after a while. This is more similar to staying at home, except there aren't really days off and you can't escape. One of the possible solutions to improve it is to move. Just one, and this isn't available to all. Others are her working, him making sure to pitch in more, remodeling, and so on.