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> therefore sets about a disciplined program of self-improvement > and wealth/prospect/prestige-accumulation in the hope that > X may one day be attracted. Th

> therefore sets about a disciplined program of self-improvement > and wealth/prospect/prestige-accumulation in the hope that > X may one day be attracted. That's basically the plot of every mind-poisoning, B.S. movie fed to American (all Western?) youth. So many men, especially young men, believe in this concept of winning over their love. Somehow he'll make her love him (creepy overtones of misogyny). He'll convince her that he's worth loving. If you really like yourself, then that's good enough. If you're not happy with yourself, yeah, improve. But don't ever think you need to improve for someone else[1]. Anyone who actually responds to this is a manipulative jerk who will gradually up the stakes to watch you dance. If X doesn't win over Y, he should consider whether he feels he needs to improve in any areas, pursue any changes, then see how things go when he bumps into Z, having forgotten about Y. [1] - exception: unquestionably defective personality traits (alcoholism, gambling addiction, abusiveness) when you're in a long-term relationship and you both agree to work on it.

Tycho 16y ago
Personally I think the more 'poisonous' idea is that 'you are who you are' and that people don't respond to actual values/achievements. Who wants to be loved in spite of what's good about them, of what they try to do. The films you talk about usually show a very superficial process of improvement, typically involving dressing in cooler clothes, lots of silly shenanigans, taking on some new hobbies, and going places to 'hang out.' I'm talking about actual achievements, starting with getting yourself in shape and becoming more entertaining, but extending to meeting your academic potential, finding a good career, developing new skills, committing to side projects, establishing a network of admirable friends, broadening your horizons etc. Things that would serve X well regardless of whether they really do impress Y in the end. With the quality of life possible in the West on a meagre wage, it's tempting to coast through life achieving a fraction of your potential
- georgieporgie 16y ago
  > the more 'poisonous' idea is that 'you are who you are' Er, are you talking about trashy movies? I don't really know any that tell you not to achieve things. > The films you talk about usually show a very superficial process of improvement It seems to depend on the sex of the character. Females have to lose the glasses and wash their hair with conditioner. Men seem to have to prove themselves, learn stuff, go to ridiculous lengths of sacrifice thereby proving to the female lead that they're worthy, etc. > it's tempting to coast through life achieving a fraction of your potential It sounds to me like it's more tempting to waste your time obsessing on the pursuit of money and success in the eyes of others, rather than doing what makes you happy and brings you closer relationships.
  - Tycho 16y ago
    I wasn't talking about movies - but the prevalent 'love is blind' idea (there are many ways of describing it). It's worse than the shallow 'get the girl' antics of movies IMO. Also I think you imply a false dichotomy between 'the pursuit of money and success' and doing what makes you happy and brings you closer relationships.
    - georgieporgie 16y ago
      > Also I think you imply a false dichotomy between 'the pursuit of money and success' You cut out the critical "in the eyes of others" part. As for a "false dichotomy," spending your life trying to make more money and present the image of success is not a path to happiness. It's quite well documented that the best thing you can do for happiness is to improve your personal relationships. As for money, it doesn't lead to happiness. A lack of money leads to unhappiness, but you only need enough. Anyway, I really think you're missing my points entirely. I'm not saying you shouldn't seek self improvement, and I'm not saying you shouldn't try to achieve things (which may or may not lead to riches). I'm saying do what you want to do for yourself and focus on your relationships. Don't be led around by false ideals implanted in your psyche, and don't try to be "good enough" for others, as it will only make you unhappy.
      - Tycho 16y ago
        I left out 'in the eyes of others' because I didn't want to have to bring up a second false dichotomy you were implying, namely between 'success in the eyes of others' and 'success in your own eyes.' I mean most people have pretty similar ideas about what constitutes success. If you try to make the most of yourself and feel you've succeeded, and you are still not 'good enough' for someone else, then I don't think that would make you unhappy. At that point you'd probably peacefully accept that something wasn't to be and that you were not to blame. On the other hand, if you never fulfill your potential, if you never really give it a try, and are left wondering what might have been, that seems a surer root to unhappiness. Though it will creep up on you after years of just having 'enough' money and maintaining the same relationships. Value isn't just the domain of money, it's also the domain of creativity and of personal qualities/virtues. Relationships, self esteem, etc, are not exempt from the concept, recognition and exchange of value. Although a lot of people talk like they are, which I think is at the bottom of this argument here.

Tycho 16y ago

Personally I think the more 'poisonous' idea is that 'you are who you are' and that people don't respond to actual values/achievements. Who wants to be loved in spite of what's good about them, of what they try to do. The films you talk about usually show a very superficial process of improvement, typically involving dressing in cooler clothes, lots of silly shenanigans, taking on some new hobbies, and going places to 'hang out.' I'm talking about actual achievements, starting with getting yourself in shape and becoming more entertaining, but extending to meeting your academic potential, finding a good career, developing new skills, committing to side projects, establishing a network of admirable friends, broadening your horizons etc. Things that would serve X well regardless of whether they really do impress Y in the end. With the quality of life possible in the West on a meagre wage, it's tempting to coast through life achieving a fraction of your potential

georgieporgie 16y ago
> the more 'poisonous' idea is that 'you are who you are' Er, are you talking about trashy movies? I don't really know any that tell you not to achieve things. > The films you talk about usually show a very superficial process of improvement It seems to depend on the sex of the character. Females have to lose the glasses and wash their hair with conditioner. Men seem to have to prove themselves, learn stuff, go to ridiculous lengths of sacrifice thereby proving to the female lead that they're worthy, etc. > it's tempting to coast through life achieving a fraction of your potential It sounds to me like it's more tempting to waste your time obsessing on the pursuit of money and success in the eyes of others, rather than doing what makes you happy and brings you closer relationships.
- Tycho 16y ago
  I wasn't talking about movies - but the prevalent 'love is blind' idea (there are many ways of describing it). It's worse than the shallow 'get the girl' antics of movies IMO. Also I think you imply a false dichotomy between 'the pursuit of money and success' and doing what makes you happy and brings you closer relationships.
  - georgieporgie 16y ago
    > Also I think you imply a false dichotomy between 'the pursuit of money and success' You cut out the critical "in the eyes of others" part. As for a "false dichotomy," spending your life trying to make more money and present the image of success is not a path to happiness. It's quite well documented that the best thing you can do for happiness is to improve your personal relationships. As for money, it doesn't lead to happiness. A lack of money leads to unhappiness, but you only need enough. Anyway, I really think you're missing my points entirely. I'm not saying you shouldn't seek self improvement, and I'm not saying you shouldn't try to achieve things (which may or may not lead to riches). I'm saying do what you want to do for yourself and focus on your relationships. Don't be led around by false ideals implanted in your psyche, and don't try to be "good enough" for others, as it will only make you unhappy.
    - Tycho 16y ago
      I left out 'in the eyes of others' because I didn't want to have to bring up a second false dichotomy you were implying, namely between 'success in the eyes of others' and 'success in your own eyes.' I mean most people have pretty similar ideas about what constitutes success. If you try to make the most of yourself and feel you've succeeded, and you are still not 'good enough' for someone else, then I don't think that would make you unhappy. At that point you'd probably peacefully accept that something wasn't to be and that you were not to blame. On the other hand, if you never fulfill your potential, if you never really give it a try, and are left wondering what might have been, that seems a surer root to unhappiness. Though it will creep up on you after years of just having 'enough' money and maintaining the same relationships. Value isn't just the domain of money, it's also the domain of creativity and of personal qualities/virtues. Relationships, self esteem, etc, are not exempt from the concept, recognition and exchange of value. Although a lot of people talk like they are, which I think is at the bottom of this argument here.