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The tools we create can be used for both good and evil. It's not my place to decide who can and can't use the tools I create and what they can use it for. Frank

The tools we create can be used for both good and evil. It's not my place to decide who can and can't use the tools I create and what they can use it for. Frankly, I simply don't care at all about any kind of politics, which is why I got into programming in the first place. And if the author doesn't like that, than that's just too bad for them.

rbanffy 9y ago
> It's not my place to decide You are still responsible though. "It's not my place to decide who uses the torture devices I design. My job is only to make them as painful as possible."
- Sean1708 9y ago
  I make kitchen knives. People use kitchen knives to kill each other. Am I now responsible for these deaths?
  - kelnos 9y ago
    You're not responsible, perhaps, but you should think about it. Choosing an extreme example like kitchen knives is a bit disingenuous (hooray cherry-picking); there are plenty of things you could build that have positive, innocuous uses but also could be used for bad in a much less trivial way than a simple kitchen knife... and for some of those things, one might suggest that the builder is responsible.
    - Sean1708 9y ago
      > Choosing an extreme example like kitchen knives is a bit disingenuous I completely disagree, I think most of the things that we build as developers are as innocuous as kitchen knives. If you're building (for example) pen-testing software then I completely agree that you should be thinking about how this software might be used against others. But if you're building some software which helps run processes across multiple nodes then I don't think it's up to the developer to police how this software is used (What would they even do about it? You can't not write software like this just because it could be used for nefarious purposes.). And I genuinely believe that 99% of us are writing software which is much more like the latter than the former.
      - rbanffy 9y ago
        A bit late for this thread, but, still, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb13ynu3Iac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb13ynu3Iac
- logfromblammo 9y ago
  Whoa, whoa, whoa. You've got a problem in your design specs, buddy. Torture devices aren't supposed to cause pain, they're supposed to generate compliance. Now you also have to consider your market segments. Some folks--we'll call them the Jack Bauers--need to maximize the compliance per time unit ratio. Sure, those devices are probably going to be painful. And expensive. So good profit margins there. But also consider the compliance per energy unit ratio. Your basic oubliettes and music-blasting oubliettes fall into that category, along with emetic-laced meals and gratuitous bureaucratic nonsense runaround. That kind of customer is looking for something cheap, almost by definition. So maybe we look at that like a subscription service. ...wait. The torture device was a metaphor, wasn't it? So let me point out the problems with your metaphor.... ~ What kind of geek doesn't at least temporarily lose sight of the big picture while obsessing over the cool and interesting details?
PythonicAlpha 9y ago
The German army leaders thought straight this way. This directly led to the 2nd World War.
- PythonicAlpha 9y ago
  Just curious: Why I am downvoted here? Any person with a little history knowledge would be able to say that everything is correct, I stated. But people don't know about history any more, since they think, we are so different today. We are not -- but who does refrain to learn from history, is bound to repeat it. Now go on down voting me, and refrain from learning! This generation just builds up the ingredients for the next downfall of humanity.
  - dredmorbius 9y ago
    Inconvenient truths are rarely popular.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    I think it's because you presented a very simplistic point. Any person with a little history knowledge would indeed be able to say that what you said is correct. Any person with a little more history knowledge will understand that the reasons for WWII were complex, and the more you try to generalize from Hitler and his circle of friends to the entire population of Germany, the less clear it makes sense. If WWII teaches us anything, it's that everyone is vulnerable to the same forces that created the Reich. It also teaches us that the more hate and more division isn't going to help anyone. This is what I fear "builds up the ingredients for the next downfall of humanity" - more hate, more outrage, more division between people. More politics and status games.
    - PythonicAlpha 9y ago
      I did never say, that I gave a full record of why the 2nd WW happened. I just gave one valid reason that made it possible. But of course, everybody just wants to see his view of the world and nobody wants to be questioned in his style of living. Just don't think about politics and make a ton of money making the world worse, is so much easier. Snowden took a stand. You do not.
Angostura 9y ago
I'm intrigued - so you're open to all any approaches from wealthy blackhats? You'll work, no questions asked?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

rbanffy 9y ago

> It's not my place to decide You are still responsible though. "It's not my place to decide who uses the torture devices I design. My job is only to make them as painful as possible."

Sean1708 9y ago
I make kitchen knives. People use kitchen knives to kill each other. Am I now responsible for these deaths?
- kelnos 9y ago
  You're not responsible, perhaps, but you should think about it. Choosing an extreme example like kitchen knives is a bit disingenuous (hooray cherry-picking); there are plenty of things you could build that have positive, innocuous uses but also could be used for bad in a much less trivial way than a simple kitchen knife... and for some of those things, one might suggest that the builder is responsible.
  - Sean1708 9y ago
    > Choosing an extreme example like kitchen knives is a bit disingenuous I completely disagree, I think most of the things that we build as developers are as innocuous as kitchen knives. If you're building (for example) pen-testing software then I completely agree that you should be thinking about how this software might be used against others. But if you're building some software which helps run processes across multiple nodes then I don't think it's up to the developer to police how this software is used (What would they even do about it? You can't not write software like this just because it could be used for nefarious purposes.). And I genuinely believe that 99% of us are writing software which is much more like the latter than the former.
    - rbanffy 9y ago
      A bit late for this thread, but, still, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb13ynu3Iac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb13ynu3Iac
logfromblammo 9y ago
Whoa, whoa, whoa. You've got a problem in your design specs, buddy. Torture devices aren't supposed to cause pain, they're supposed to generate compliance. Now you also have to consider your market segments. Some folks--we'll call them the Jack Bauers--need to maximize the compliance per time unit ratio. Sure, those devices are probably going to be painful. And expensive. So good profit margins there. But also consider the compliance per energy unit ratio. Your basic oubliettes and music-blasting oubliettes fall into that category, along with emetic-laced meals and gratuitous bureaucratic nonsense runaround. That kind of customer is looking for something cheap, almost by definition. So maybe we look at that like a subscription service. ...wait. The torture device was a metaphor, wasn't it? So let me point out the problems with your metaphor.... ~ What kind of geek doesn't at least temporarily lose sight of the big picture while obsessing over the cool and interesting details?

PythonicAlpha 9y ago

The German army leaders thought straight this way. This directly led to the 2nd World War.

PythonicAlpha 9y ago
Just curious: Why I am downvoted here? Any person with a little history knowledge would be able to say that everything is correct, I stated. But people don't know about history any more, since they think, we are so different today. We are not -- but who does refrain to learn from history, is bound to repeat it. Now go on down voting me, and refrain from learning! This generation just builds up the ingredients for the next downfall of humanity.
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  Inconvenient truths are rarely popular.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  I think it's because you presented a very simplistic point. Any person with a little history knowledge would indeed be able to say that what you said is correct. Any person with a little more history knowledge will understand that the reasons for WWII were complex, and the more you try to generalize from Hitler and his circle of friends to the entire population of Germany, the less clear it makes sense. If WWII teaches us anything, it's that everyone is vulnerable to the same forces that created the Reich. It also teaches us that the more hate and more division isn't going to help anyone. This is what I fear "builds up the ingredients for the next downfall of humanity" - more hate, more outrage, more division between people. More politics and status games.
  - PythonicAlpha 9y ago
    I did never say, that I gave a full record of why the 2nd WW happened. I just gave one valid reason that made it possible. But of course, everybody just wants to see his view of the world and nobody wants to be questioned in his style of living. Just don't think about politics and make a ton of money making the world worse, is so much easier. Snowden took a stand. You do not.

Angostura 9y ago

I'm intrigued - so you're open to all any approaches from wealthy blackhats? You'll work, no questions asked?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]