5 ms·

Right. But are you comfortable with the fact that not all hackers will be on the same political side? I wouldn't go as far as voting for Trump, but I am one of

Right. But are you comfortable with the fact that not all hackers will be on the same political side? I wouldn't go as far as voting for Trump, but I am one of those crazy ultra-libertarians you occasionally encounter (I support tax cuts AND free migration). There are some well-educated people, even some with PhDs, who actually _did_ vote for Trump (I know a few), and most certainly, there are many Trump supporters right here on HN. Will you be comfortable with that, enabling political discourse? Everyone wants to change the world, but not everyone is sharing your direction of change.

rcMgD2BwE72F 9y ago
How does that relate with the blog post?
- atemerev 9y ago
  Leaving politics aside allows e.g. me to collaborate productively with e.g. ultra-left socialist bicycle-driving UBI-supporting people. If we leave politics aside, we can agree to disagree and still work together on something useful. If we will discuss politics, our time will be spend in unproductive discussion without actually changing the world in any direction.
  - kelnos 9y ago
    > ultra-left socialist bicycle-driving UBI-supporting people I think that's the problem right there. I suspect you didn't intend it to sound that way, but that part of your statement comes across as dismissive and condescending. I point that out only to suggest that there's no reason why people with different political views can't work together, as long as they respect each others' views and don't discuss them in a demeaning way. I don't think that necessarily means you're "putting politics aside", and in fact I think that can be harmful in some cases.
    - presidente20 9y ago
      I think for many people political views are quite tightly bound up with their sense of identity and therefore in practice political debates tend to end up being quite personal and negative. I tend to avoid politics except with very close friends for that reason and therefore agree with atemerov that working relationships should be preserved.
    - atemerev 9y ago
      I am not saying this in any diminutive context. For some of my friends, all these are the points of pride.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 9y ago
    > If we will discuss politics, our time will be spend in unproductive discussion without actually changing the world in any direction." If I shared this belief, I don't think I could support democracy.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      What does one have to do with the other? Supporting democracy means you vote to the best of your knowledge, not that you have to engage in what usually are unproductive conversations with strangers.
  - thescribe 9y ago
    Exactly this! My political views may be on the extreme side, but I want to work with all kinds of people regardless of their political views, because it is humanizing and there is so much common ground. If ignoring a subject allows that it seems worth it to me.
maaaats 9y ago
I don't really care what this <political figure> or <this party> means about an issue, I enjoy the discussions here on HN as they often present well-presented arguments from multiple positions, without appealing to authority or what side in politics means what.
xg15 9y ago
> Will you be comfortable with that, enabling political discourse? Yes we should if the alternative is singing "la la la can't hear you" and pretending we were all of the same opinion when in fact we aren't.
- LoSboccacc 9y ago
  Have you seen how the poli discussion goes usually around here? Endless circlejerk where every voice out pf the choir is downvoted to oblivion Truth is this place majority comes from a verry narrow social bracket, and thus has a very narrow mindset and as such a very small set of ideas keep resonatin
  - xg15 9y ago
    I have seen enough heated discussions and diverse opinions on here that I can't share that.
- xg15 9y ago
  (To clarify: I think it's important but to stop discussing and acknowledge which other views exist and are widespread and why they are. That doesn't mean I share all views or think they are all equally valid. I personally think Trump was the worst that could happen and the climate action was once again proof of that.)
franciscop 9y ago
On the other side I do like discussing topics with people with opposite ideologies. Some of the most interesting discussions I've had started with something like "Imagine that machines continue automating jobs and in the future there is only 10-20% of jobs today. What would you do with the rest of the people?". Edit: I normally take the opposing side of the person that gives the argument just to explore the topic in-depth, so probably people from the left thing that I'm from the right and the reverse as well.
- atemerev 9y ago
  There's nothing much to do. UBI is economically impossible with current population levels. Usually, in times of global economic transitions such as this one, a world war happens. There are no unemployed in wartime.
  - sgift 9y ago
    Why do you think UBI is economically impossible? Studies I've seen point in the opposite direction (though they haven't been tested in really so far)
    - atemerev 9y ago
      Modern pension / retirement plans are barely possible and probably will be significantly downsized. UBI will require 20-30x more resources, which firmly put it in the realm of fantasies. (I'm not saying anything about moral aspects of UBI. Just that it is impossible to actually implement, at least with modern population levels).
      - sgift 9y ago
        That's mostly a function of taxation though, isn't it? I agree that UBI won't be possible with the current system of mainly taxing workers and reducing the taxation of everyone else (common trend in most western countries), but that's not a given or do you think we won't be able to change that?
kelnos 9y ago
We all have plenty of opposing views on non-political matters, many of them quite polarizing, so I don't see why discussing opposing political views would be inherently more problematic or difficult.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  Most other views are amendable to facts. Politics, by a) dealing with the most complex and messy aspect of reality, which is human interaction, and b) being very strongly based off opinions and status games, inherently invites bad discussions.
  - kelnos 9y ago
    Agreed, but I don't think that's a good reason to avoid those sorts of discussions. HN has a much stronger tradition of moderation than most other sites, and while I wouldn't expect discussions involving politics to be perfect, I would still expect bad actors to be downvoted into oblivion.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      While on paper your objection stands, I feel that in practice things are different. This I derive from observing and participating in such threads. The problem is politics is so opinion and status-based that it crosses this magical threshold where even otherwise level-headed people just lose it. It's toxic beyond what even HN's regular moderation mechanisms can handle. The other thing is, it's easy for politics to drown all other topics - political issues speak well to our "someone is wrong on the Internet" instincts, and there's always something outrage-inducing to be posted. While I personally don't mind an occasional political discussion (and I like when it's not political per se, but more e.g. economical or military-strategy type, in which people post many interesting facts and ways of reasoning I haven't seen before), I wouldn't like those topics to keep dominating the front page (happened a few times in the past).

rcMgD2BwE72F 9y ago

How does that relate with the blog post?

atemerev 9y ago
Leaving politics aside allows e.g. me to collaborate productively with e.g. ultra-left socialist bicycle-driving UBI-supporting people. If we leave politics aside, we can agree to disagree and still work together on something useful. If we will discuss politics, our time will be spend in unproductive discussion without actually changing the world in any direction.
- kelnos 9y ago
  > ultra-left socialist bicycle-driving UBI-supporting people I think that's the problem right there. I suspect you didn't intend it to sound that way, but that part of your statement comes across as dismissive and condescending. I point that out only to suggest that there's no reason why people with different political views can't work together, as long as they respect each others' views and don't discuss them in a demeaning way. I don't think that necessarily means you're "putting politics aside", and in fact I think that can be harmful in some cases.
  - presidente20 9y ago
    I think for many people political views are quite tightly bound up with their sense of identity and therefore in practice political debates tend to end up being quite personal and negative. I tend to avoid politics except with very close friends for that reason and therefore agree with atemerov that working relationships should be preserved.
  - atemerev 9y ago
    I am not saying this in any diminutive context. For some of my friends, all these are the points of pride.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 9y ago
  > If we will discuss politics, our time will be spend in unproductive discussion without actually changing the world in any direction." If I shared this belief, I don't think I could support democracy.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    What does one have to do with the other? Supporting democracy means you vote to the best of your knowledge, not that you have to engage in what usually are unproductive conversations with strangers.
- thescribe 9y ago
  Exactly this! My political views may be on the extreme side, but I want to work with all kinds of people regardless of their political views, because it is humanizing and there is so much common ground. If ignoring a subject allows that it seems worth it to me.

maaaats 9y ago

I don't really care what this <political figure> or <this party> means about an issue, I enjoy the discussions here on HN as they often present well-presented arguments from multiple positions, without appealing to authority or what side in politics means what.

xg15 9y ago

> Will you be comfortable with that, enabling political discourse? Yes we should if the alternative is singing "la la la can't hear you" and pretending we were all of the same opinion when in fact we aren't.

LoSboccacc 9y ago
Have you seen how the poli discussion goes usually around here? Endless circlejerk where every voice out pf the choir is downvoted to oblivion Truth is this place majority comes from a verry narrow social bracket, and thus has a very narrow mindset and as such a very small set of ideas keep resonatin
- xg15 9y ago
  I have seen enough heated discussions and diverse opinions on here that I can't share that.
xg15 9y ago
(To clarify: I think it's important but to stop discussing and acknowledge which other views exist and are widespread and why they are. That doesn't mean I share all views or think they are all equally valid. I personally think Trump was the worst that could happen and the climate action was once again proof of that.)

franciscop 9y ago

On the other side I do like discussing topics with people with opposite ideologies. Some of the most interesting discussions I've had started with something like "Imagine that machines continue automating jobs and in the future there is only 10-20% of jobs today. What would you do with the rest of the people?". Edit: I normally take the opposing side of the person that gives the argument just to explore the topic in-depth, so probably people from the left thing that I'm from the right and the reverse as well.

atemerev 9y ago
There's nothing much to do. UBI is economically impossible with current population levels. Usually, in times of global economic transitions such as this one, a world war happens. There are no unemployed in wartime.
- sgift 9y ago
  Why do you think UBI is economically impossible? Studies I've seen point in the opposite direction (though they haven't been tested in really so far)
  - atemerev 9y ago
    Modern pension / retirement plans are barely possible and probably will be significantly downsized. UBI will require 20-30x more resources, which firmly put it in the realm of fantasies. (I'm not saying anything about moral aspects of UBI. Just that it is impossible to actually implement, at least with modern population levels).
    - sgift 9y ago
      That's mostly a function of taxation though, isn't it? I agree that UBI won't be possible with the current system of mainly taxing workers and reducing the taxation of everyone else (common trend in most western countries), but that's not a given or do you think we won't be able to change that?

kelnos 9y ago

We all have plenty of opposing views on non-political matters, many of them quite polarizing, so I don't see why discussing opposing political views would be inherently more problematic or difficult.

TeMPOraL 9y ago
Most other views are amendable to facts. Politics, by a) dealing with the most complex and messy aspect of reality, which is human interaction, and b) being very strongly based off opinions and status games, inherently invites bad discussions.
- kelnos 9y ago
  Agreed, but I don't think that's a good reason to avoid those sorts of discussions. HN has a much stronger tradition of moderation than most other sites, and while I wouldn't expect discussions involving politics to be perfect, I would still expect bad actors to be downvoted into oblivion.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    While on paper your objection stands, I feel that in practice things are different. This I derive from observing and participating in such threads. The problem is politics is so opinion and status-based that it crosses this magical threshold where even otherwise level-headed people just lose it. It's toxic beyond what even HN's regular moderation mechanisms can handle. The other thing is, it's easy for politics to drown all other topics - political issues speak well to our "someone is wrong on the Internet" instincts, and there's always something outrage-inducing to be posted. While I personally don't mind an occasional political discussion (and I like when it's not political per se, but more e.g. economical or military-strategy type, in which people post many interesting facts and ways of reasoning I haven't seen before), I wouldn't like those topics to keep dominating the front page (happened a few times in the past).