4 ms·

Ask HN: Leaving the video game industry.

3 points by animosity 16y ago

Do any of you have experience leaving the video game industry? Can you say what kind of software you now work on, or how you explained your career shift to subsequent employers? I've worked as a software engineer on video games for 2.5 years (after undergrad in cs). This was a mistake. I absolutely never feel a sense of satisfaction or accomplishment with anything i produced. 9 hours a day i stare at the products we make and wonder why anyone anywhere pays for them (clueless customers or idiotic publishers). After work i tool around a lot with web-oriented technologies. I enjoy the ethos of languages like python and javascript, and i think work could be more interesting if those were the technologies i used professionally. My industry experience has been entirely C++ based though. Can i somehow spin this as a good thing? I've also been thinking, my skill set may be transferable to mobile platforms since they are bound by hardware in a way similar to games on consoles.

corin_ 16y ago
Are you sure that you really want to leave the games industry? Based on what you've said, it seems quite possible that you'd be just as happy if you moved to a new company where you could be able to enjoy your work and take pride in the games you help make. I just ask because if there is a way for you to really enjoy your work without having to move into a completely new industry, you might find the move a lot easier.
- animosity 16y ago
  i think it's quite possible that i will never be happy working as a software engineer in any industry. but i can virtually guarantee i'll never be happy in the video game industry. the vast majority of video games are utter crap. it's astounding what pretty marketing can fool people into paying for. the entire process suffers from a tremendous lack of formality because it's a "creative" product. the code quality is atrocious because everyone is chasing a moving target, and apparently there just isn't time to document anything. i also have the sense that i'm not developing any particular skill set beyond dealing with excruciatingly undocumented apis & debugging excruciatingly unstable code (because the industry refuses to adopt developments in abstracting memory management - the vast majority of most games DO NOT need to be written in C++, despite what everyone would have you believe). there's also this expectation that i'm in it for the love of video-games, because why else would i put up with these shitty hours and pay? fool me once. i've actually worked at two video game companies (due to immigration issues), at two different extremes in terms of number of employees, etc. AND IT'S THE SAME BULLSHIT EVERYWHERE. so again, getting out of the video game industry is just a last ditch attempt at staying in the larger software industry. it mystifies me that i spend the majority of my free time enthralled by the latest developments in software/technology (i definitely look forward to google i/o more than christmas), and yet i hate every moment of my professional life - but there you have it.
  - dkersten 16y ago
    Disclaimer: I have no professional game development experience. It sounds like you were working on shovelware for EA or someone like that. From having spoken to people who work in the games industry (though not just games per se, but middleware too: demonware and havok are two who are active in my area), I don't think this applies accross the board. Havok, for example, doesn't fall into the "code quality is atrocious" category (don't believe me? while you can't grab the source code, you can however use the library free of charge on PC's). From reading online forums and such, it seems to me that there are some really great game development houses who do have a lot of fun with what they do, do learn interesting and new things and so on. Definitely not all, but they do exist. Sadly, I agree that a lot of games don't put as much effort into code quality as they should (which is why we have to put up with crashes and bugs and post-release patches...), but I really do believe that its not as bad as you make it out to be. So, my advice would be to ditch the shitty money-crazed shovelware companies and find a small development shop which does it for fun and enjoyment just as much as for money. Of course, even then the games industry might not appeal to you. At the end of the day, only you know for sure, so if you're unhappy, then by all means move on. As for where to - what have you worked on? (eg, 3d graphics? game ai? physics?) What do you enjoy doing/what areas would you like to work in instead? Its tough to give advice without knowing what your relevant skills and interests are. (Or, what in particular interests you about mobile platforms?) As for C++, being good at programming in C and C++ is always a bonus. You make it sound like its dirty to have C++ experience! (I certainly hope not, I've written a lot of C++ code myself.. still do when it makes sense to). Everything you've been doing in C++ can probably be applied elsewhere.
    - spitfire 16y ago
      I'd hire a programmer with c++ experience long before I'd hire a ruby or python programmer. It's easier to stop them from using their bad c++ habits than it is to skill up a ruby or python programmer in basic cs/architecture.
    - animosity 16y ago
      > It sounds like you were working on shovelware for EA or someone like that. direct hit. > find a small development shop which does it for fun and enjoyment just as much as for money. i thought i'd found that at my present company but it's the same crap. i was really naive about this place. > As for where to - what have you worked on this is the most worrying part. i used to focus on graphics, but what these operations need is someone competent to deal with a broad range of issues. and that's what i've been shafted into doing. > You make it sound like its dirty to have C++ experience! i didn't mean for it to sound like that. i worry that people who make hiring decisions won't see beyond their keyword filters though.
Sirocco 16y ago
Most of the people I know from the industry got out after five or so years, and started up their own small outfits, or went indie. Game development sounds sexy and fun, but unless you're at the top of the food chain calling the shots, you're usually an overworked drone. Worse yet, you may end up working yourself to death on a slew of titles you have no particular interest in. I adopted the opposite approach because I'm a control freak and can't stand working on other peoples' projects. I kept my day job as a programmer outside the game sector, and indie it up in my spare time. Don't feel bad if you want to bail. You're most definitely not alone in that respect. The way to spin your experience to potential employers is to emphasize how demanding game development is: tight scheduling, zero percent bug tolerance, rapidly changing standards, performance is always an issue, etc.
- animosity 16y ago
  actually, another reason i want to leave the video game industry is so i can work in my free time on my own projects without violating these bullshit non-compete contracts. so your day job was also programming games? can you point me to some of the indie stuff you've made. and out of curiosity - which country are you in? edit: "day job was also programming games" - i got that you were programming.
  - Sirocco 16y ago
    Sorry, I got sidetracked. Holidays and whatnot :) My day job has always been outside the gaming industry. I do programming for the industrial automation sector in America. Robotics, PLCs, manufacturing... that sort of stuff. It's interesting at times, but not particularly challenging. The pay is good, but we're somewhat of a dying breed. Most new programmers move into the web apps or networking side of things. Some days I'm not even sure how I got into this stuff! As for my games, I've piddled around for the last decade or so making old SNES-style games. You can find some examples of my past work at (callofcodethulhu.com) and (http://www.allegro.cc/members/sirocco/projects http://www.allegro.cc/members/sirocco/projects). I'm about a month or less away from finishing my latest project, so it's a total grind-o-rama around my house when I get home from work.
access_denied 16y ago
Judging from what your wrote, your problem seems to be one of finding meaning in your work. Finding meaning in games development as a software engineer is a tough call. A video game is more a medium than a piece of engineering. The meaningful parts are all in the "media layer", while the egineering merely provides the carrier. Sid Meier educates his players in history. WoW / Warhammer and the like developed a unique style in the artistic discipline of sculpting. The Ultima series was about personal development and philosophy. You get the gist. Carmack the Great is good at positioning himself where engineering is the discpiline that creates meaning. He writes the engine and motivates the youth to build rockets. So I see essentially 2 paths to victory here: 1) You go the Carmack route and clearly the biggest opportunities lie here outside of gaming specially if you see EA et al as the gaming industry. 2) You see yourself as a servant who helps a team of artists accomplish meaningful work by providing the underlying engineering they need to get their art working.

3 points by animosity 16y ago

corin_ 16y ago

Are you sure that you really want to leave the games industry? Based on what you've said, it seems quite possible that you'd be just as happy if you moved to a new company where you could be able to enjoy your work and take pride in the games you help make. I just ask because if there is a way for you to really enjoy your work without having to move into a completely new industry, you might find the move a lot easier.

animosity 16y ago
i think it's quite possible that i will never be happy working as a software engineer in any industry. but i can virtually guarantee i'll never be happy in the video game industry. the vast majority of video games are utter crap. it's astounding what pretty marketing can fool people into paying for. the entire process suffers from a tremendous lack of formality because it's a "creative" product. the code quality is atrocious because everyone is chasing a moving target, and apparently there just isn't time to document anything. i also have the sense that i'm not developing any particular skill set beyond dealing with excruciatingly undocumented apis & debugging excruciatingly unstable code (because the industry refuses to adopt developments in abstracting memory management - the vast majority of most games DO NOT need to be written in C++, despite what everyone would have you believe). there's also this expectation that i'm in it for the love of video-games, because why else would i put up with these shitty hours and pay? fool me once. i've actually worked at two video game companies (due to immigration issues), at two different extremes in terms of number of employees, etc. AND IT'S THE SAME BULLSHIT EVERYWHERE. so again, getting out of the video game industry is just a last ditch attempt at staying in the larger software industry. it mystifies me that i spend the majority of my free time enthralled by the latest developments in software/technology (i definitely look forward to google i/o more than christmas), and yet i hate every moment of my professional life - but there you have it.
- dkersten 16y ago
  Disclaimer: I have no professional game development experience. It sounds like you were working on shovelware for EA or someone like that. From having spoken to people who work in the games industry (though not just games per se, but middleware too: demonware and havok are two who are active in my area), I don't think this applies accross the board. Havok, for example, doesn't fall into the "code quality is atrocious" category (don't believe me? while you can't grab the source code, you can however use the library free of charge on PC's). From reading online forums and such, it seems to me that there are some really great game development houses who do have a lot of fun with what they do, do learn interesting and new things and so on. Definitely not all, but they do exist. Sadly, I agree that a lot of games don't put as much effort into code quality as they should (which is why we have to put up with crashes and bugs and post-release patches...), but I really do believe that its not as bad as you make it out to be. So, my advice would be to ditch the shitty money-crazed shovelware companies and find a small development shop which does it for fun and enjoyment just as much as for money. Of course, even then the games industry might not appeal to you. At the end of the day, only you know for sure, so if you're unhappy, then by all means move on. As for where to - what have you worked on? (eg, 3d graphics? game ai? physics?) What do you enjoy doing/what areas would you like to work in instead? Its tough to give advice without knowing what your relevant skills and interests are. (Or, what in particular interests you about mobile platforms?) As for C++, being good at programming in C and C++ is always a bonus. You make it sound like its dirty to have C++ experience! (I certainly hope not, I've written a lot of C++ code myself.. still do when it makes sense to). Everything you've been doing in C++ can probably be applied elsewhere.
  - spitfire 16y ago
    I'd hire a programmer with c++ experience long before I'd hire a ruby or python programmer. It's easier to stop them from using their bad c++ habits than it is to skill up a ruby or python programmer in basic cs/architecture.
  - animosity 16y ago
    > It sounds like you were working on shovelware for EA or someone like that. direct hit. > find a small development shop which does it for fun and enjoyment just as much as for money. i thought i'd found that at my present company but it's the same crap. i was really naive about this place. > As for where to - what have you worked on this is the most worrying part. i used to focus on graphics, but what these operations need is someone competent to deal with a broad range of issues. and that's what i've been shafted into doing. > You make it sound like its dirty to have C++ experience! i didn't mean for it to sound like that. i worry that people who make hiring decisions won't see beyond their keyword filters though.

Sirocco 16y ago

Most of the people I know from the industry got out after five or so years, and started up their own small outfits, or went indie. Game development sounds sexy and fun, but unless you're at the top of the food chain calling the shots, you're usually an overworked drone. Worse yet, you may end up working yourself to death on a slew of titles you have no particular interest in. I adopted the opposite approach because I'm a control freak and can't stand working on other peoples' projects. I kept my day job as a programmer outside the game sector, and indie it up in my spare time. Don't feel bad if you want to bail. You're most definitely not alone in that respect. The way to spin your experience to potential employers is to emphasize how demanding game development is: tight scheduling, zero percent bug tolerance, rapidly changing standards, performance is always an issue, etc.

animosity 16y ago
actually, another reason i want to leave the video game industry is so i can work in my free time on my own projects without violating these bullshit non-compete contracts. so your day job was also programming games? can you point me to some of the indie stuff you've made. and out of curiosity - which country are you in? edit: "day job was also programming games" - i got that you were programming.
- Sirocco 16y ago
  Sorry, I got sidetracked. Holidays and whatnot :) My day job has always been outside the gaming industry. I do programming for the industrial automation sector in America. Robotics, PLCs, manufacturing... that sort of stuff. It's interesting at times, but not particularly challenging. The pay is good, but we're somewhat of a dying breed. Most new programmers move into the web apps or networking side of things. Some days I'm not even sure how I got into this stuff! As for my games, I've piddled around for the last decade or so making old SNES-style games. You can find some examples of my past work at (callofcodethulhu.com) and (http://www.allegro.cc/members/sirocco/projects http://www.allegro.cc/members/sirocco/projects). I'm about a month or less away from finishing my latest project, so it's a total grind-o-rama around my house when I get home from work.

access_denied 16y ago

Judging from what your wrote, your problem seems to be one of finding meaning in your work. Finding meaning in games development as a software engineer is a tough call. A video game is more a medium than a piece of engineering. The meaningful parts are all in the "media layer", while the egineering merely provides the carrier. Sid Meier educates his players in history. WoW / Warhammer and the like developed a unique style in the artistic discipline of sculpting. The Ultima series was about personal development and philosophy. You get the gist. Carmack the Great is good at positioning himself where engineering is the discpiline that creates meaning. He writes the engine and motivates the youth to build rockets. So I see essentially 2 paths to victory here: 1) You go the Carmack route and clearly the biggest opportunities lie here outside of gaming specially if you see EA et al as the gaming industry. 2) You see yourself as a servant who helps a team of artists accomplish meaningful work by providing the underlying engineering they need to get their art working.