3 ms·

The dark $ide of silicon startups

35 points by noemit 9y ago

Clubber 9y ago
I certainly don't see this as exclusive to Silicon Valley. I think it's widespread in corporate America.
- noemit 9y ago
  Again - maybe my experience is different, but I was never told in corporate america that I should sacrifice my free time for my company because we were saving the world. I was underpaid (ish) but I was never abused. Startups get away with a lot more because of the stereotype that they are different.
  - erikpukinskis 9y ago
    You're generalizing from your anecdotal experience of a handful of specific positions to "all of corporate America" which I think is a false generalization. Exploitative salaries are the norm. This is why unemployement holds firm in the mid single digits, even as the economy grows: to give employers a tool with which to frighten employees into accepting salaries that give the employer high margins on labor.
masterzachary 9y ago
I've worked with several startup clients over the past year. It is a mixed bag like anywhere in life there are some jerks, some unethical, some selfish, and some overly self important arrogant types.Treating workers, clients, your customers, or anyone badly is not good for business and gets a company nowhere over the long term. Of course, there are companies that can have success in spite of having abusive, unethical leadership, but over the longterm no one wants to work with crappy people for long. I worked for an abusive, arrogant, child for over two years. I learned much from witnessing his bad behavior and the negative effect it has on anyone that works with him or around him. Despite what a pain it was to deal with this nutcase, in the end I came to pity and feel sorry for him. He is a sad, miserable, petty, mentally ill, child that lashes out at everyone, and essentially spends more time trying to figure out ways to screw his clients and workers out of money than offer anything of value himself. Screwing people and being a jerk is no way to go thru life. These types need mental help. Turns out this type of behavior hasn't exactly made him a successful business leader. It has simply enabled him to piggyback on others hard-work, shiest his workers, startup clients (and in turn their investors). So in a way he has had a measure of success at screwing people out of money. But over the longterm no one respects him and no one wants to work with him (clients included). By any measure this type is not successful in business or in life, yet crappy greedy mid 40 types behave this way because they no other way and they would rather try to screw a few sheckles out of their clients & colleagues than figure out ways to offer something of value. Don't let these fools get you down they are a dime a dozen, narcissistic talentless bozo's apparently grow on trees out here in LA. It is a learning lesson to deal with one of these types, as you learn what not to do, how not to act, and how to avoid being sucked into the crappy vortex that is working with these types.
tdeck 9y ago
Did anyone else start reading the text at the top, only to scroll down a bit and realize it's a two-column article? This seems like a very strange layout for a web page.
weirdshape 9y ago
Dunno how bad it can be elsewhere but even third-rate dev shops using ASP.NET can be pretty damn bad. I mean staying in the office until 7pm every night, and getting nasty phone calls on Christmas eve.
- downrightmike 9y ago
  Dealer's choice: http://www.hubcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/good-cheap-fast-2a.png http://www.hubcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/good-cheap...
siegel 9y ago
I agree these complaints are widespread in corporate America. In fact, I think these issues are worse OUTSIDE of the startup world. Most of the founders I deal with pay their employees before the founders themselves get a dime of salary. Sure the founders get the bulk of the equity. But they also give their employees equity awards, even though the employees get paid a salary, as well (i.e. they don't take on the same risk). In comparison, in generic corporate America, the people on top get substantially more guaranteed cash compensation, in addition to any stock awards. In addition, I've had plenty of startup clients who did all sorts of generous things for their employees that were not required. For example, when getting acquired, I have had clients give special cash bonuses to employees to ensure they get a sufficient "upside" in the transaction (beyond what the employee was entitled to from their stock or options). I just haven't seen that type of behavior in more "mature" corporations.
- noemit 9y ago
  In corporate America, young people don't get tricked into working severely underpaid for equity that very often doesn't turn into a lot, and sometimes the employees don't even realize they have to BUY the options and when it comes down to it, can't afford them. #Realtalk In corporate America, it's not great, but it's less of a shill because people aren't pretending to save the world.
  - siegel 9y ago
    I appreciate that perspective and I see your point. Most of the employee questions re: equity that I am privy too are fairly sophisticated. But, of course, many employees never ask questions and, therefore, my experience may give me a skewed perspective on the sophistication of startup employees. That being said, plenty of larger companies convince their employees (successfully) to "drink the Kool-Aid" and think that their company is saving the world. But, of course, those employees are also being paid a salary (unlike many startup employees, as you note).
  - erikpukinskis 9y ago
    > In corporate America, young people don't get tricked into working severely underpaid for equity No, they just get tricked into working severely underpaid for cash. Unfair compensation is unfair compensation. Fraudulent valuations are fraudulent. It has nothing to do with silicon valley vs corporate America it has to do with fraud and people taking unfair advantage of information differentials.

35 points by noemit 9y ago

Clubber 9y ago

I certainly don't see this as exclusive to Silicon Valley. I think it's widespread in corporate America.

noemit 9y ago
Again - maybe my experience is different, but I was never told in corporate america that I should sacrifice my free time for my company because we were saving the world. I was underpaid (ish) but I was never abused. Startups get away with a lot more because of the stereotype that they are different.
- erikpukinskis 9y ago
  You're generalizing from your anecdotal experience of a handful of specific positions to "all of corporate America" which I think is a false generalization. Exploitative salaries are the norm. This is why unemployement holds firm in the mid single digits, even as the economy grows: to give employers a tool with which to frighten employees into accepting salaries that give the employer high margins on labor.

masterzachary 9y ago

I've worked with several startup clients over the past year. It is a mixed bag like anywhere in life there are some jerks, some unethical, some selfish, and some overly self important arrogant types.Treating workers, clients, your customers, or anyone badly is not good for business and gets a company nowhere over the long term. Of course, there are companies that can have success in spite of having abusive, unethical leadership, but over the longterm no one wants to work with crappy people for long. I worked for an abusive, arrogant, child for over two years. I learned much from witnessing his bad behavior and the negative effect it has on anyone that works with him or around him. Despite what a pain it was to deal with this nutcase, in the end I came to pity and feel sorry for him. He is a sad, miserable, petty, mentally ill, child that lashes out at everyone, and essentially spends more time trying to figure out ways to screw his clients and workers out of money than offer anything of value himself. Screwing people and being a jerk is no way to go thru life. These types need mental help. Turns out this type of behavior hasn't exactly made him a successful business leader. It has simply enabled him to piggyback on others hard-work, shiest his workers, startup clients (and in turn their investors). So in a way he has had a measure of success at screwing people out of money. But over the longterm no one respects him and no one wants to work with him (clients included). By any measure this type is not successful in business or in life, yet crappy greedy mid 40 types behave this way because they no other way and they would rather try to screw a few sheckles out of their clients & colleagues than figure out ways to offer something of value. Don't let these fools get you down they are a dime a dozen, narcissistic talentless bozo's apparently grow on trees out here in LA. It is a learning lesson to deal with one of these types, as you learn what not to do, how not to act, and how to avoid being sucked into the crappy vortex that is working with these types.

tdeck 9y ago

Did anyone else start reading the text at the top, only to scroll down a bit and realize it's a two-column article? This seems like a very strange layout for a web page.

weirdshape 9y ago

Dunno how bad it can be elsewhere but even third-rate dev shops using ASP.NET can be pretty damn bad. I mean staying in the office until 7pm every night, and getting nasty phone calls on Christmas eve.

downrightmike 9y ago
Dealer's choice: http://www.hubcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/good-cheap-fast-2a.png http://www.hubcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/good-cheap...

siegel 9y ago

I agree these complaints are widespread in corporate America. In fact, I think these issues are worse OUTSIDE of the startup world. Most of the founders I deal with pay their employees before the founders themselves get a dime of salary. Sure the founders get the bulk of the equity. But they also give their employees equity awards, even though the employees get paid a salary, as well (i.e. they don't take on the same risk). In comparison, in generic corporate America, the people on top get substantially more guaranteed cash compensation, in addition to any stock awards. In addition, I've had plenty of startup clients who did all sorts of generous things for their employees that were not required. For example, when getting acquired, I have had clients give special cash bonuses to employees to ensure they get a sufficient "upside" in the transaction (beyond what the employee was entitled to from their stock or options). I just haven't seen that type of behavior in more "mature" corporations.

noemit 9y ago
In corporate America, young people don't get tricked into working severely underpaid for equity that very often doesn't turn into a lot, and sometimes the employees don't even realize they have to BUY the options and when it comes down to it, can't afford them. #Realtalk In corporate America, it's not great, but it's less of a shill because people aren't pretending to save the world.
- siegel 9y ago
  I appreciate that perspective and I see your point. Most of the employee questions re: equity that I am privy too are fairly sophisticated. But, of course, many employees never ask questions and, therefore, my experience may give me a skewed perspective on the sophistication of startup employees. That being said, plenty of larger companies convince their employees (successfully) to "drink the Kool-Aid" and think that their company is saving the world. But, of course, those employees are also being paid a salary (unlike many startup employees, as you note).
- erikpukinskis 9y ago
  > In corporate America, young people don't get tricked into working severely underpaid for equity No, they just get tricked into working severely underpaid for cash. Unfair compensation is unfair compensation. Fraudulent valuations are fraudulent. It has nothing to do with silicon valley vs corporate America it has to do with fraud and people taking unfair advantage of information differentials.