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I do believe life is a good deal of weighing risks and taking them at a period of time. Jumping right off to freelancing would be too uncertain at the moment. B

I do believe life is a good deal of weighing risks and taking them at a period of time. Jumping right off to freelancing would be too uncertain at the moment. Bills come to around $1,500/mo. Freelancing at the moment generates around $900-$1200/mo. But I currently only have the bandwidth to handle 1 or 2 projects per month. On the rebellion side I would not feel ethical doing so. I don't want this guy's business to crash and burn. It does honestly provide a solution to a need in the industry and the product is of high quality. As much as I sometimes wish I was, I'm not that much of a dick to cause trouble. (Plus there may be some movement there of a lawsuit or something that would make me overly nervous.) I do have a feeling however that me leaving this company will have a snowball effect on the others there.

bensummers 16y ago
If the product is as good as you say it is, there should be plenty of money to pay well. And paying people well should increase the quality further: if you don't have to worry about basic needs you've got more bandwidth for being technically excellent. Don't feel bad about 'rebellion', loyalty should be both ways and respect must be earned. Stand up for yourself!
- jtheory 16y ago
  <i>If the product is as good as you say it is, there should be plenty of money to pay well.</i> It sounds to me like this business is currently failing, but your boss is "faking it" by exploiting you; he might just as well be paying you normally but keeping the doors open by draining his grandmother's bank account. It might not be a problem with the product -- after all, the client list is growing swiftly. Simply put, he needs to either find the money to pay for what he's demanding from you, or he needs to close up shop. He might need a loan or investment to cover the gap until you are cashflow positive, but in this case he is stealing from you instead. It's not even an "investment" on your part, because he seems to have utterly no intent to pay you back. That's just stealing. For comparison, in an honest situation, he would be either: * paying you a normal salary as an employee * paying you a higher rate as a 1099 contractor (to account for your reduced security and benefits) * or paying you less but accepting the difference as your personal investment in the company -- so like any investment, if the risk pays off, you would be paid back MORE than your investment in the future. This would be formalized by giving you shares, etc. (and you should be able to calculate how/when you would be repaid).
RBerenguel 16y ago
I agree with bensummers. It is not about being a dick, it is about being treated fairly. You have been severely underpaid for a long time, and he acts like you can't have a life of your own but just be a robot-like jack-of-all-trades. If my boss didn't pay for my health bill and asked me to work while at the hospital I would definitely not let it go like that, you are a human being, moreover, you are helping him to get money. And you are almost getting no money back. As about lawsuits, it greatly depends on how you focus it. You are being exploited, you know it (and he knows it). You could probably sue him right now. And telling your colleagues about how work was like there is not unethical, nor illegal, it is helpful for them. Couldn't you just balance on paying for more bandwidth (don't know the prices where you live) with just more freelancing? When you say "bills" you mean just that, or include expenses like food and the like?
- datawalke 16y ago
  I do agree that my colleagues do need a little guidance in the situation as well. They are almost all new-hires right out of college and were never exposed to anything else. With bills it comes down the items I listed before (housing, car, student loans, credit cards, utilities) Food/misc wasn't included. The issue with this area is it's fairly stuck in the old' days. People expect to pay $200-$500 for a website, regardless of what it does. It could be one page, or it could have all the functionality they would ever dream of but only expect to pay a one-time fee.
  - Silhouette 16y ago
    Just a thought, but have you considered that in your freelancing you might be aiming at the wrong market? You say that people expect to pay $200-500 for a web site, and I'm sure a lot of places do, but that's the same everywhere. Some places want a cheap site that a college student could do or that they can outsource to someone they'll never meet in a low-paying country. Naturally, the quality of what they receive will usually reflect the price. On the other hand, you seem like a diligent person and you seem to have some real skills in this area. You might want to consider aiming at the higher end of the spectrum, businesses who see a web site as a serious investment, and will pay accordingly for someone who is going to do the professional job that a typical kid won't. Look for the projects within reach of one person (give or take outsourcing any areas where your expertise is lacking) over a few months, and with the five- or six-figure price tags. You don't need a lot more hours or a large team to take on these medium-weight jobs, but you do need a professional approach as well as the technical chops, and awareness that web development involves things like usability, accessibility, branding, etc. as well as just hacking on HTML. It sounds like that's exactly the sort of wider awareness and business-like approach that you have, but you'll never make the most of it picking up jobs for peanuts.
gojomo 16y ago
But how much freelancing could you handle if you didn't have the exploitative full-time job? (How does your effective rate-per-hour vary at the main job vs. freelancing gigs? And, might you be undercharging for your freelancing as much as you're undercharging for day job?) The ethical approach is to state clearly what you need to continue and if they can't meet that, you move on with proper notice. However, you are being underpaid and both the treatment-as-contractor and constant-low-pay-in-the-face-of-overtime are of dubious legality. If by your acquiescence to unfair/illegal conditions you are then effectively encouraging their perpetuation, and their extension to other junior employees, and further falling behind in providing for your family, than 'not causing trouble' is the unethical path. If the business would crash and burn without you, you are a key employee who deserves better pay and equity. But from the sloppy way things seem to have been handled so far, you might not even be able to trust a stock grant from your employer. (Even if he is in some ways charismatic or effective, you may have run across a bad actor who will press every advantage against a person who won't be personally/legally assertive in response.)
BobbyH 16y ago
Why not convert your "1099 boss" into a real freelancer client? This involves a few simple steps: 1. Ask him to be "upgraded" to a real employee (he'll say no, as we suspect) 2. Tell him you understand his decision, and since he wants you to be freelance, you will work for him as a true freelancer, e.g. for a certain number of hours, at a certain hourly wage, at your own home, at the hours you choose. 3. He may "fire" you. However, if you are as indispensable as it sounds like you are, he will come crawling back to you. In any case, he won't fire you until he sucks know-how out of your brain, which he would do over the course of a month of freelance work. So you have some time to do the transition. P.S. Leading a rebellion is only needed when you have no leverage. In fact, you have tons of leverage, you just don't understand or are unwilling to use it.
- datawalke 16y ago
  This could be a possibility. On #1 I know he will say no to. Actually, I believe all your steps would come out just as you laid them out there.
- dkersten 16y ago
  3.1) if he fires you and comes crawling back later, charge him double what you offered him at first ;-)
exit 16y ago
you should fuck your boss over as hard as possible. seriously, people like him need to be taught an excruciating lesson.
alexwyser 16y ago
I am a freelance web designer. I am outside the US and only communicate with my clients via email and I make about $1500/month freelancing working only 4-5 hours a day. You should be making more by freelancing. I sent you an email about this. I work as an outsourcing partner to US-based web design firms. These firms pay me a fraction of what they charge their clients, so I am looking to work with clients directly. If you are interested we could partner up. I can provide web design and development services and have a very strong portfolio (alexwyser.com) to help us out. This will allow you to take on more clients, provide a wider range of services (I do front-end and back-end stuff as well) and make more money. And probably help you freelance full-time. Let me know if you are interested. And good luck.
ahoyhere 16y ago
OKAY, stop right there: > I don't want this guy's business to crash and burn. That's fine, you don't have to want it to crash and burn. HE clearly wants it to crash and burn. While it's your entirely your responsibility for having chosen to stay in such a terrible situation, he's the one who created it in the first place. He's the one who's betting his business on mistreating people. He's the one who's betting his business on mistreating, most importantly, a single person who holds his business together. He could have paid you more. He could have fulfilled his promises. He could have hired other people to make you more dispensible, to hedge his bets, to protect his future. But he didn't. Because he's not a businessman, he's a user. Users don't think "gee maybe I should use THIS guy a little less, to protect myself," they think "WEEEHEE I CAN SQUEEZE A LITTLE MORE OUT OF THIS DUDE FOR NOTHING!" That's simply unwise. It's not your place to worry about whether he goes out of business. It's his plan. It's his mistake. And, after you leave and you've secured your future income, call the IRS on his butt. He is breaking the law and should be punished and switch his business model to something legal. Don't do it out of vengeance, do it out of concern for future schmucks.

bensummers 16y ago

If the product is as good as you say it is, there should be plenty of money to pay well. And paying people well should increase the quality further: if you don't have to worry about basic needs you've got more bandwidth for being technically excellent. Don't feel bad about 'rebellion', loyalty should be both ways and respect must be earned. Stand up for yourself!

jtheory 16y ago
<i>If the product is as good as you say it is, there should be plenty of money to pay well.</i> It sounds to me like this business is currently failing, but your boss is "faking it" by exploiting you; he might just as well be paying you normally but keeping the doors open by draining his grandmother's bank account. It might not be a problem with the product -- after all, the client list is growing swiftly. Simply put, he needs to either find the money to pay for what he's demanding from you, or he needs to close up shop. He might need a loan or investment to cover the gap until you are cashflow positive, but in this case he is stealing from you instead. It's not even an "investment" on your part, because he seems to have utterly no intent to pay you back. That's just stealing. For comparison, in an honest situation, he would be either: * paying you a normal salary as an employee * paying you a higher rate as a 1099 contractor (to account for your reduced security and benefits) * or paying you less but accepting the difference as your personal investment in the company -- so like any investment, if the risk pays off, you would be paid back MORE than your investment in the future. This would be formalized by giving you shares, etc. (and you should be able to calculate how/when you would be repaid).

RBerenguel 16y ago

I agree with bensummers. It is not about being a dick, it is about being treated fairly. You have been severely underpaid for a long time, and he acts like you can't have a life of your own but just be a robot-like jack-of-all-trades. If my boss didn't pay for my health bill and asked me to work while at the hospital I would definitely not let it go like that, you are a human being, moreover, you are helping him to get money. And you are almost getting no money back. As about lawsuits, it greatly depends on how you focus it. You are being exploited, you know it (and he knows it). You could probably sue him right now. And telling your colleagues about how work was like there is not unethical, nor illegal, it is helpful for them. Couldn't you just balance on paying for more bandwidth (don't know the prices where you live) with just more freelancing? When you say "bills" you mean just that, or include expenses like food and the like?

datawalke 16y ago
I do agree that my colleagues do need a little guidance in the situation as well. They are almost all new-hires right out of college and were never exposed to anything else. With bills it comes down the items I listed before (housing, car, student loans, credit cards, utilities) Food/misc wasn't included. The issue with this area is it's fairly stuck in the old' days. People expect to pay $200-$500 for a website, regardless of what it does. It could be one page, or it could have all the functionality they would ever dream of but only expect to pay a one-time fee.
- Silhouette 16y ago
  Just a thought, but have you considered that in your freelancing you might be aiming at the wrong market? You say that people expect to pay $200-500 for a web site, and I'm sure a lot of places do, but that's the same everywhere. Some places want a cheap site that a college student could do or that they can outsource to someone they'll never meet in a low-paying country. Naturally, the quality of what they receive will usually reflect the price. On the other hand, you seem like a diligent person and you seem to have some real skills in this area. You might want to consider aiming at the higher end of the spectrum, businesses who see a web site as a serious investment, and will pay accordingly for someone who is going to do the professional job that a typical kid won't. Look for the projects within reach of one person (give or take outsourcing any areas where your expertise is lacking) over a few months, and with the five- or six-figure price tags. You don't need a lot more hours or a large team to take on these medium-weight jobs, but you do need a professional approach as well as the technical chops, and awareness that web development involves things like usability, accessibility, branding, etc. as well as just hacking on HTML. It sounds like that's exactly the sort of wider awareness and business-like approach that you have, but you'll never make the most of it picking up jobs for peanuts.

gojomo 16y ago

But how much freelancing could you handle if you didn't have the exploitative full-time job? (How does your effective rate-per-hour vary at the main job vs. freelancing gigs? And, might you be undercharging for your freelancing as much as you're undercharging for day job?) The ethical approach is to state clearly what you need to continue and if they can't meet that, you move on with proper notice. However, you are being underpaid and both the treatment-as-contractor and constant-low-pay-in-the-face-of-overtime are of dubious legality. If by your acquiescence to unfair/illegal conditions you are then effectively encouraging their perpetuation, and their extension to other junior employees, and further falling behind in providing for your family, than 'not causing trouble' is the unethical path. If the business would crash and burn without you, you are a key employee who deserves better pay and equity. But from the sloppy way things seem to have been handled so far, you might not even be able to trust a stock grant from your employer. (Even if he is in some ways charismatic or effective, you may have run across a bad actor who will press every advantage against a person who won't be personally/legally assertive in response.)

BobbyH 16y ago

Why not convert your "1099 boss" into a real freelancer client? This involves a few simple steps: 1. Ask him to be "upgraded" to a real employee (he'll say no, as we suspect) 2. Tell him you understand his decision, and since he wants you to be freelance, you will work for him as a true freelancer, e.g. for a certain number of hours, at a certain hourly wage, at your own home, at the hours you choose. 3. He may "fire" you. However, if you are as indispensable as it sounds like you are, he will come crawling back to you. In any case, he won't fire you until he sucks know-how out of your brain, which he would do over the course of a month of freelance work. So you have some time to do the transition. P.S. Leading a rebellion is only needed when you have no leverage. In fact, you have tons of leverage, you just don't understand or are unwilling to use it.

datawalke 16y ago
This could be a possibility. On #1 I know he will say no to. Actually, I believe all your steps would come out just as you laid them out there.
dkersten 16y ago
3.1) if he fires you and comes crawling back later, charge him double what you offered him at first ;-)

exit 16y ago

you should fuck your boss over as hard as possible. seriously, people like him need to be taught an excruciating lesson.

alexwyser 16y ago

I am a freelance web designer. I am outside the US and only communicate with my clients via email and I make about $1500/month freelancing working only 4-5 hours a day. You should be making more by freelancing. I sent you an email about this. I work as an outsourcing partner to US-based web design firms. These firms pay me a fraction of what they charge their clients, so I am looking to work with clients directly. If you are interested we could partner up. I can provide web design and development services and have a very strong portfolio (alexwyser.com) to help us out. This will allow you to take on more clients, provide a wider range of services (I do front-end and back-end stuff as well) and make more money. And probably help you freelance full-time. Let me know if you are interested. And good luck.

ahoyhere 16y ago

OKAY, stop right there: > I don't want this guy's business to crash and burn. That's fine, you don't have to want it to crash and burn. HE clearly wants it to crash and burn. While it's your entirely your responsibility for having chosen to stay in such a terrible situation, he's the one who created it in the first place. He's the one who's betting his business on mistreating people. He's the one who's betting his business on mistreating, most importantly, a single person who holds his business together. He could have paid you more. He could have fulfilled his promises. He could have hired other people to make you more dispensible, to hedge his bets, to protect his future. But he didn't. Because he's not a businessman, he's a user. Users don't think "gee maybe I should use THIS guy a little less, to protect myself," they think "WEEEHEE I CAN SQUEEZE A LITTLE MORE OUT OF THIS DUDE FOR NOTHING!" That's simply unwise. It's not your place to worry about whether he goes out of business. It's his plan. It's his mistake. And, after you leave and you've secured your future income, call the IRS on his butt. He is breaking the law and should be punished and switch his business model to something legal. Don't do it out of vengeance, do it out of concern for future schmucks.