6 ms·

I have to agree, dude you are making 26k a year. Starting salary for a fresh junior is 40k and that is just someone who know HTML, CSS and Photoshop let alone i

by kls 16y ago

I have to agree, dude you are making 26k a year. Starting salary for a fresh junior is 40k and that is just someone who know HTML, CSS and Photoshop let alone if they actually know a server side language. He is lying about the 1099 being cheaper, that is only true if you are an S-Corporation, right now you are responsible for a little over 15% for social security, something that you are not if you are W2 or a corp. $500 is chump change to put up with Type-A personality bullshit like be here on the spot and no sick days. That is fast food management, you need to bail as fast as you can you have a wife and kids that rely on you to seek as much as you can. As for the "he has not taken any pay" crap, he has equity, you do not your only reward is your pay check in that situation.

datawalke 16y ago
"As for the "he has not taken any pay" crap, he has equity, you do not your only reward is your pay check in that situation." Very correct. On several occasions I have been promised equity. At first as a compensation for my pay, and then as vested. However none of this ever came into existence. Every time I brought it up again he would keep putting it off. But then in any discussions for a raise or anything to that degree he would use it against me saying something to the degree of: "Well, you know you are going to get equity in this!" I called him on it once. Saying that I wouldn't want equity if my pay was increased. The conversation ended right there.
- wisty 16y ago
  Sorry, but I doubt that the guy is actually going to give you any equity. You could say you are leaving unless he gives you an offer on paper (which should include some notion of the percent of the company you will get - if he just offers 100,000 shares you can bet he will set total shares to 100,000,000,000 to screw you out of owning a real chunk), but he'll probably call your bluff. As another poster suggested, get out and go freelance. Maybe you can steal his clients - I hope he has been as lazy on the non-compete as he has on granting options.
  - datawalke 16y ago
    Agreed. Originally he brought this up and I was thinking like 10 to 20%. He then said something to the degree of a half percent per year. I unfortunately did sign a non-compete. The founder has pretty tight connections within this industry. It would be hard to steal clients to begin with -- I make sure all of the work is perfect and the clients are happy. I also would feel unethical doing so.
    - X-Istence 16y ago
      Check your state law, non-compete may not be legal.
      - tptacek 16y ago
        They're enforceable in Pennsylvania, and poaching clients is one of the more direct and easy-to-prove ways to violate one.
        hga 16y ago
        datawalke can go nuclear and threaten to drop a dime on the IRS (and the state come to think of it). The boss may think he's being smart by using Simon Legree as his role model but it's set him up for some really severe real world retribution, very possibly including personal bankruptcy (see my earliest reply in this topic for details: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1446428 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1446428).
        pasbesoin 16y ago
        Whether to do so may be a personal choice. But if you do, get out first; don't do it while you are dependent on the place. Based on your description, finding other work that pays at least as well should not be terribly difficult even in this market (the one caveat being to explain why your pay was so low; there was a recent HN conversation on whether to provide previous pay data and how to appropriately decline to do so, that may be useful). And you don't want to be job hunting while embroiled in such a scenario. Based on your description, I would expect NOTHING from your current employer. Actions speak louder than words, and this guy's actions have "asshole" written all over them.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- lars512 16y ago
  If your promises of equity aren't in formal agreements, then they're not worth anything. It sounds like your employer is letting you take all the risk, without offering you any reward, now or later. I'd work out what your market salary is. Then work out what you really need to live, support your family, and give you options over the next year. You then need to negotiate with your boss to either pay you at market rates, or at your actual needs but with some formal equity to make up the difference. He won't be happy with any of this, and most likely you'll have to leave. It sounds like the whole start-up may fail if you do, if you're really the one holding it together. Hopefully your employer realises this during negotiations, but he may not be able to think about the issue rationally. On every occasion that someone I know has taken work beneath their market value, they've never successfully renegotiated their salary, even a year or two later, and have only received their true value at a new workplace.
- rkalla 16y ago
  The others are right, you will never get enough equity from this guys to equal anything. He'll give you 10k shares at 10 cents apiece and then want you to shut your mouth about it. Which is great, if the company is sold for $100,000,000 -- but it won't be, and he will continue to pay you less than 16 year old make at In n' Out burger and drive you into the ground as a penalty for holding his feet to the fire. People that value other people, would have never had you in this position in the first place. He doesn't, walk away.
- mcherm 16y ago
  Based on that additional piece of information I have some advice for you. Take your boss aside, and tell him that you need his undivided attention for an hour or so, later today. Wait patiently until whenever he agrees to meet you. Then tell him that you believe the current situation is completely untenable. Tell him that your intention is to quit, immediately, today, and that you still believe that is the best approach. However, rather than necessarily abandon him, you will remain open to instead receiving a portion of the equity. Decide BEFOREHAND what portion of the equity you want, and make sure it's something that would make you feel GOOD about working for peanuts for a few years. Tell him to think about it overnight, and see what he says in the morning. Based on what I've heard so far about his personality, I'll predict that he'll probably tell you to get lost. Or he'll beg you to stay without the condition. But stand your ground. Then go find a better job.
derefr 16y ago
Just as a tangent, because I didn't want to bother with my own Ask HN: > Starting salary for a fresh junior is 40k and that is just someone who know HTML, CSS and Photoshop let alone if they actually know a server side language. I know, like the back of my hand: HTML, CSS, Photoshop (and Illustrator/InDesign/Premiere/etc), Javascript, PHP, Ruby (not specialized to Rails, but with a year or two of experience in it), and C/C++. I've had more than a year's experience in: Java, Lua, IA32 and ARM assembler, Haskell and Clojure. On top of that, I have years of Windows and Linux sysadmining, DBA, and tech support/computer repair knowledge. ...but I'm only in my first year of University, and have literally zero measurable work experience with any of this stuff (no previous employers in any sort of technical field, no references, no portfolio..) In short, I have no proof that I can do any of the stuff I can do... what should I do?
- mnemonik 16y ago
  I don't have an answer to your question. I am suspicious that you have zero measurable experience. Are you sure? You are familiar with multiple web stacks, but don't have a single website you can point people to? You were a sysadmin for years and don't have a reference? You have zero contributions open source projects (others or your own)? I think you might be able to find something that hints at your experience.
  - derefr 16y ago
    > You are familiar with multiple web stacks, but don't have a single website you can point people to? Only my own homepage, which isn't proof of anything at all, since it's about as visibly complex as an FTP directory (despite doing some neat things with Heroku, Sinatra, and a makeshift Dropbox API underneath.) It used to be a byzantine mess with its own forums and wiki and project hosting—and utterly no reason for anyone to use any of it, but for the fact that I wanted to have those things, and so I made them. Now it's just pages. I've built web-apps as personal projects, but have long taken them all down or thrown them out due to loss of momentum (I had no users, ergo no one cared, ergo no reason to develop in any particular direction...) The few that I've held onto, I would never want to be publicly viewable, as they have absolutely horrible graphic design (by me, who is most definitely not a designer.) > You were a sysadmin for years and don't have a reference? I have sysadminning skills—but I was never a sysadmin (except for a non-profit community center, in a volunteer capacity, as an unofficial side-job to the normal duties of tutoring old folks in Internet skills, and which shut down soon after I left....) I read articles and books about it, I download and figure out how to use $20k/seat software that is utterly useless on the single computer I install it onto, I figure out solutions to problems posted online by people who seemingly have 100x the experience I do, I tinker with machines and networks that aren't my own... but no one's ever paid me for doing any of that. I see it as a hobby. > You have zero contributions open source projects (others or your own)? Yup, absolutely nothing. I probably have twenty or thirty things I could declare open-source, but none of which I'm proud of—in fact, the amount of technical debt in each is enough to make me ashamed that they have my name on them (though I doubt others would see it that way—I'm somewhere between perfectionism and extreme social anxiety when it comes to work done as anything other than a direct request.) --- An aside: Now, I'm not saying that, with a year or so of work, I couldn't build a really damn awesome portfolio, something I could be proud of and that would show off every one of my skills. But is that what I'm supposed to do? Is that better than just working my way up from an entry-level job, pretending I have no skills? I honestly have no idea; that's what I've been doing up until now. I should mention that currently, I'm unemployed, and very quickly running out of money. Obviously, I don't have a year to put in right at the moment, even though I do have the skills right now :) I ask my parents what to do, and they tell me to get a job for minimum wage in a grocery store. They're simply happy that I'll be able to make $50k/yr once I graduate (they've made that much, combined, for their entire lives.) In school, every class I'm allowed to register for, I pass without having to learn anything; and all the classes I'm interested in, I've learned by the time I qualify for them. Basically, I'm coasting, and I've gotten really good at it. I don't have any mentors or role-models to pull me forward, so I just drift. --- Sorry, that became more therapeutic than technical near the end—but the answer is yes: right now, I'm quite sure that I have no proof of anything.
tptacek 16y ago
It's not cheaper if you're an S-Corporation either.
- kls 16y ago
  It depends on what state you incorporate as well as live in and what business deductions you can take (basically a lot of variables). But, you are correct, that was loose advice with no detail around it, for which I am sorry. I should have just stuck to the your getting screwed by getting a 1099 over a W2 answer.
hga 16y ago
26K if he doesn't take any vacation time (looks like he can't take sick time...) minus almost 2K for his share of FICA withholding, adjusted for whatever he can claim as expenses on his Schedule C. Which is not likely to be much.

by kls 16y ago

datawalke 16y ago

"As for the "he has not taken any pay" crap, he has equity, you do not your only reward is your pay check in that situation." Very correct. On several occasions I have been promised equity. At first as a compensation for my pay, and then as vested. However none of this ever came into existence. Every time I brought it up again he would keep putting it off. But then in any discussions for a raise or anything to that degree he would use it against me saying something to the degree of: "Well, you know you are going to get equity in this!" I called him on it once. Saying that I wouldn't want equity if my pay was increased. The conversation ended right there.

wisty 16y ago
Sorry, but I doubt that the guy is actually going to give you any equity. You could say you are leaving unless he gives you an offer on paper (which should include some notion of the percent of the company you will get - if he just offers 100,000 shares you can bet he will set total shares to 100,000,000,000 to screw you out of owning a real chunk), but he'll probably call your bluff. As another poster suggested, get out and go freelance. Maybe you can steal his clients - I hope he has been as lazy on the non-compete as he has on granting options.
- datawalke 16y ago
  Agreed. Originally he brought this up and I was thinking like 10 to 20%. He then said something to the degree of a half percent per year. I unfortunately did sign a non-compete. The founder has pretty tight connections within this industry. It would be hard to steal clients to begin with -- I make sure all of the work is perfect and the clients are happy. I also would feel unethical doing so.
  - X-Istence 16y ago
    Check your state law, non-compete may not be legal.
    - tptacek 16y ago
      They're enforceable in Pennsylvania, and poaching clients is one of the more direct and easy-to-prove ways to violate one.
      - hga 16y ago
        datawalke can go nuclear and threaten to drop a dime on the IRS (and the state come to think of it). The boss may think he's being smart by using Simon Legree as his role model but it's set him up for some really severe real world retribution, very possibly including personal bankruptcy (see my earliest reply in this topic for details: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1446428 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1446428).
        pasbesoin 16y ago
        Whether to do so may be a personal choice. But if you do, get out first; don't do it while you are dependent on the place. Based on your description, finding other work that pays at least as well should not be terribly difficult even in this market (the one caveat being to explain why your pay was so low; there was a recent HN conversation on whether to provide previous pay data and how to appropriately decline to do so, that may be useful). And you don't want to be job hunting while embroiled in such a scenario. Based on your description, I would expect NOTHING from your current employer. Actions speak louder than words, and this guy's actions have "asshole" written all over them.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
lars512 16y ago
If your promises of equity aren't in formal agreements, then they're not worth anything. It sounds like your employer is letting you take all the risk, without offering you any reward, now or later. I'd work out what your market salary is. Then work out what you really need to live, support your family, and give you options over the next year. You then need to negotiate with your boss to either pay you at market rates, or at your actual needs but with some formal equity to make up the difference. He won't be happy with any of this, and most likely you'll have to leave. It sounds like the whole start-up may fail if you do, if you're really the one holding it together. Hopefully your employer realises this during negotiations, but he may not be able to think about the issue rationally. On every occasion that someone I know has taken work beneath their market value, they've never successfully renegotiated their salary, even a year or two later, and have only received their true value at a new workplace.
rkalla 16y ago
The others are right, you will never get enough equity from this guys to equal anything. He'll give you 10k shares at 10 cents apiece and then want you to shut your mouth about it. Which is great, if the company is sold for $100,000,000 -- but it won't be, and he will continue to pay you less than 16 year old make at In n' Out burger and drive you into the ground as a penalty for holding his feet to the fire. People that value other people, would have never had you in this position in the first place. He doesn't, walk away.
mcherm 16y ago
Based on that additional piece of information I have some advice for you. Take your boss aside, and tell him that you need his undivided attention for an hour or so, later today. Wait patiently until whenever he agrees to meet you. Then tell him that you believe the current situation is completely untenable. Tell him that your intention is to quit, immediately, today, and that you still believe that is the best approach. However, rather than necessarily abandon him, you will remain open to instead receiving a portion of the equity. Decide BEFOREHAND what portion of the equity you want, and make sure it's something that would make you feel GOOD about working for peanuts for a few years. Tell him to think about it overnight, and see what he says in the morning. Based on what I've heard so far about his personality, I'll predict that he'll probably tell you to get lost. Or he'll beg you to stay without the condition. But stand your ground. Then go find a better job.

derefr 16y ago

Just as a tangent, because I didn't want to bother with my own Ask HN: > Starting salary for a fresh junior is 40k and that is just someone who know HTML, CSS and Photoshop let alone if they actually know a server side language. I know, like the back of my hand: HTML, CSS, Photoshop (and Illustrator/InDesign/Premiere/etc), Javascript, PHP, Ruby (not specialized to Rails, but with a year or two of experience in it), and C/C++. I've had more than a year's experience in: Java, Lua, IA32 and ARM assembler, Haskell and Clojure. On top of that, I have years of Windows and Linux sysadmining, DBA, and tech support/computer repair knowledge. ...but I'm only in my first year of University, and have literally zero measurable work experience with any of this stuff (no previous employers in any sort of technical field, no references, no portfolio..) In short, I have no proof that I can do any of the stuff I can do... what should I do?

mnemonik 16y ago
I don't have an answer to your question. I am suspicious that you have zero measurable experience. Are you sure? You are familiar with multiple web stacks, but don't have a single website you can point people to? You were a sysadmin for years and don't have a reference? You have zero contributions open source projects (others or your own)? I think you might be able to find something that hints at your experience.
- derefr 16y ago
  > You are familiar with multiple web stacks, but don't have a single website you can point people to? Only my own homepage, which isn't proof of anything at all, since it's about as visibly complex as an FTP directory (despite doing some neat things with Heroku, Sinatra, and a makeshift Dropbox API underneath.) It used to be a byzantine mess with its own forums and wiki and project hosting—and utterly no reason for anyone to use any of it, but for the fact that I wanted to have those things, and so I made them. Now it's just pages. I've built web-apps as personal projects, but have long taken them all down or thrown them out due to loss of momentum (I had no users, ergo no one cared, ergo no reason to develop in any particular direction...) The few that I've held onto, I would never want to be publicly viewable, as they have absolutely horrible graphic design (by me, who is most definitely not a designer.) > You were a sysadmin for years and don't have a reference? I have sysadminning skills—but I was never a sysadmin (except for a non-profit community center, in a volunteer capacity, as an unofficial side-job to the normal duties of tutoring old folks in Internet skills, and which shut down soon after I left....) I read articles and books about it, I download and figure out how to use $20k/seat software that is utterly useless on the single computer I install it onto, I figure out solutions to problems posted online by people who seemingly have 100x the experience I do, I tinker with machines and networks that aren't my own... but no one's ever paid me for doing any of that. I see it as a hobby. > You have zero contributions open source projects (others or your own)? Yup, absolutely nothing. I probably have twenty or thirty things I could declare open-source, but none of which I'm proud of—in fact, the amount of technical debt in each is enough to make me ashamed that they have my name on them (though I doubt others would see it that way—I'm somewhere between perfectionism and extreme social anxiety when it comes to work done as anything other than a direct request.) --- An aside: Now, I'm not saying that, with a year or so of work, I couldn't build a really damn awesome portfolio, something I could be proud of and that would show off every one of my skills. But is that what I'm supposed to do? Is that better than just working my way up from an entry-level job, pretending I have no skills? I honestly have no idea; that's what I've been doing up until now. I should mention that currently, I'm unemployed, and very quickly running out of money. Obviously, I don't have a year to put in right at the moment, even though I do have the skills right now :) I ask my parents what to do, and they tell me to get a job for minimum wage in a grocery store. They're simply happy that I'll be able to make $50k/yr once I graduate (they've made that much, combined, for their entire lives.) In school, every class I'm allowed to register for, I pass without having to learn anything; and all the classes I'm interested in, I've learned by the time I qualify for them. Basically, I'm coasting, and I've gotten really good at it. I don't have any mentors or role-models to pull me forward, so I just drift. --- Sorry, that became more therapeutic than technical near the end—but the answer is yes: right now, I'm quite sure that I have no proof of anything.

tptacek 16y ago

It's not cheaper if you're an S-Corporation either.

kls 16y ago
It depends on what state you incorporate as well as live in and what business deductions you can take (basically a lot of variables). But, you are correct, that was loose advice with no detail around it, for which I am sorry. I should have just stuck to the your getting screwed by getting a 1099 over a W2 answer.

hga 16y ago

26K if he doesn't take any vacation time (looks like he can't take sick time...) minus almost 2K for his share of FICA withholding, adjusted for whatever he can claim as expenses on his Schedule C. Which is not likely to be much.