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Elon Musk's tunnel plan is surprisingly outdated–and bad

29 points by oftenwrong 9y ago

netinstructions 9y ago
> He does say he’s working on developing a TBM that simultaneously digs and reinforces tunnels, one of the big engineering challenges for tunneling. Musk should have given his TED Talk on that instead of this surprisingly archaic idea for addressing vehicular congestion. I too have more hopes that this could "dramatically change the way we build and finance infrastructure" than all the other aspects of Musk's electric sleds for cars and the associated elevators that go with them to ferry cars around underground. However, a TED talk on TBMs is a boring, unrelatable talk. A TED talk on how we can "drive" our cars around awful traffic is something many, many Americans can get excited about. Even if I agree with the article author that the assumption that cars are the de facto way to get around is misguided and wrong. In other words, let's appeal to the affluent car-centric/politicians/lobbyists in cars so we can get better TBMs for public transportation projects down the road that those demographics don't usually support anyways.
- Gravityloss 9y ago
  Maybe another route to nicer cities is this: you put the cars and buses underground while pedestrians, cyclists and tram riders can enjoy the pleasant views and sunshine.
surak 9y ago
The author misses the point completly, everything Musk does starts with an implication analysis of what is needed on Mars. If he can generate some cash here on earth for covering development costs, it helps the grand project.
- woodandsteel 9y ago
  Hey, that makes sense, Musk will need lots of cheap tunnels on Mars.
Obi_Juan_Kenobi 9y ago
It's bad because it's not public transportation? Is that really an argument? The idea is clearly that tunnels allow you to scale along the z-axis, and thus facilitate density. Whether that's car-sleds or small trains or something else, that's not really the point. This also shows a lack of imagination with regard to public transit; yes it's very efficient in some ways, but door-to-door transport is very desirable as well. With the development of small electric vehicles and autonomous driving, a hybrid mode of transport becomes possible; small vehicles can come together in 'trains' or along special corridors that still permit door-to-door service. There are plenty of good criticisms for Musk's various projects, but griping about a fun video is disappointing.
undersuit 9y ago
>What Musk’s video doesn’t show is the gridlock created when all these vehicles try to “merge” down into the subterranean highway at the same time. It’s no different than an above-ground highway. At all. But it is! The sleds are all equally performant, that changes traffic flows considerably. The sleds are all networked, merging on roads is difficult because of lack of information and coordination. When controlling the sleds in one of these tunnels and a new vehicle is going to be inserted into the flow of the existing sleds you have many options. You could slow down all the incoming sleds, insert the new sled in front of the slowed sleds, and then speed them all back up at a controlled synchronized rate. You could have the new sled just wait until there is a time to enter the tunnel and accelerate to the correct speed. You could speed up some sleds and slow down others to make a hole in the flow for the new sled. But it's not merging like we know now. Cars all have different properties that make them different and the drivers are different too. Of course merging is a pain when undersuit's aging truck is driven up the on ramp and it has to accelerate from 25 to 45 to 65mph... onto a road way where people are driving from 50mph to 80mph.
randyrand 9y ago
Induced traffic is the reason country roads always have bumper to bumper traffic. Oh wait...
unstatusthequo 9y ago
Make a better one if you don't like it and quit bitching about someone who has the balls to try and make a difference. Who are these armchair assholes who contribute nothing and have the audacity to complain about it? That mentality is exactly what's wrong with this country.

29 points by oftenwrong 9y ago

> He does say he’s working on developing a TBM that simultaneously digs and reinforces tunnels, one of the big engineering challenges for tunneling. Musk should have given his TED Talk on that instead of this surprisingly archaic idea for addressing vehicular congestion. I too have more hopes that this could "dramatically change the way we build and finance infrastructure" than all the other aspects of Musk's electric sleds for cars and the associated elevators that go with them to ferry cars around underground. However, a TED talk on TBMs is a boring, unrelatable talk. A TED talk on how we can "drive" our cars around awful traffic is something many, many Americans can get excited about. Even if I agree with the article author that the assumption that cars are the de facto way to get around is misguided and wrong. In other words, let's appeal to the affluent car-centric/politicians/lobbyists in cars so we can get better TBMs for public transportation projects down the road that those demographics don't usually support anyways.

Gravityloss 9y ago
Maybe another route to nicer cities is this: you put the cars and buses underground while pedestrians, cyclists and tram riders can enjoy the pleasant views and sunshine.

surak 9y ago

The author misses the point completly, everything Musk does starts with an implication analysis of what is needed on Mars. If he can generate some cash here on earth for covering development costs, it helps the grand project.

woodandsteel 9y ago
Hey, that makes sense, Musk will need lots of cheap tunnels on Mars.

Obi_Juan_Kenobi 9y ago

It's bad because it's not public transportation? Is that really an argument? The idea is clearly that tunnels allow you to scale along the z-axis, and thus facilitate density. Whether that's car-sleds or small trains or something else, that's not really the point. This also shows a lack of imagination with regard to public transit; yes it's very efficient in some ways, but door-to-door transport is very desirable as well. With the development of small electric vehicles and autonomous driving, a hybrid mode of transport becomes possible; small vehicles can come together in 'trains' or along special corridors that still permit door-to-door service. There are plenty of good criticisms for Musk's various projects, but griping about a fun video is disappointing.

undersuit 9y ago

>What Musk’s video doesn’t show is the gridlock created when all these vehicles try to “merge” down into the subterranean highway at the same time. It’s no different than an above-ground highway. At all. But it is! The sleds are all equally performant, that changes traffic flows considerably. The sleds are all networked, merging on roads is difficult because of lack of information and coordination. When controlling the sleds in one of these tunnels and a new vehicle is going to be inserted into the flow of the existing sleds you have many options. You could slow down all the incoming sleds, insert the new sled in front of the slowed sleds, and then speed them all back up at a controlled synchronized rate. You could have the new sled just wait until there is a time to enter the tunnel and accelerate to the correct speed. You could speed up some sleds and slow down others to make a hole in the flow for the new sled. But it's not merging like we know now. Cars all have different properties that make them different and the drivers are different too. Of course merging is a pain when undersuit's aging truck is driven up the on ramp and it has to accelerate from 25 to 45 to 65mph... onto a road way where people are driving from 50mph to 80mph.

randyrand 9y ago

Induced traffic is the reason country roads always have bumper to bumper traffic. Oh wait...

unstatusthequo 9y ago

Make a better one if you don't like it and quit bitching about someone who has the balls to try and make a difference. Who are these armchair assholes who contribute nothing and have the audacity to complain about it? That mentality is exactly what's wrong with this country.